this kid with road rage tried to fight me today

[Divided Attention]

Maybe it is a "Mom" thing, or maybe it is just a "me" thing. I can't untrack from the "put my gun under my leg" thing. One of the "rules" I teach in firearm safety to the kids is "never point the gun at anything you don't wish to destroy." If you always practice the rules of safety, you don't have to worry about when/if you should. Please be careful! You could bleed out from a leg wound before you could call 911. There are mountable holsters you can get for your car to keep it in reach if you are not carrying on body, but JMPHO tucking it under your leg is not a viable choice.

Welcome to the forum. I totally agree with the other member posting to read the law and get more training. I don't think you can have enough! I also agree with TAM and the "first to call 911" thing. He would only have had to get out of his car once before I would have had 911 on the horn! I also would not have gone to where I was going, but would have kept turning corners until they were gone before I went anywhere I frequent or home. I don't need some screwball knowing any of my "regular" places. again, JMPHO.

Wish you the best! Welcome again! Stay alert, stay safe and Merry Christmas!

[Cjwglock19]

First, welcome to the forum. As many have said, you can get lots of good info here and will be pointed to more. I've been carrying almost daily for about 3 years now. Not sure if they make one for your 9mm, but Raven Concealment makes good owb holsters that are very comfortable and concealing. Also, a Sneaky Pete may be good for your .380, as it will clip on your belt and look like a phone/ PDA.

The best advice I have heard or read was that having a CHL isn't really to engage a threat , it's to disengage a threat. You certainly did well by not taking the bait!

Carrying as a real estate agent is a good idea! We recently have been looking at new homes and at one I left my gun in the truck...one property had a guest house that someone had been living in, which should have been empty. Sleeping bag, canned goods and trash all around... and my wife and daughter walked in after me. Not a good feeling.

[RoyGBiv]

Seems to me that the OP did the best he could under the circumstances and learned many valuable lessons. I'm also grateful that he's shared his experience here, both as a reminder to all of us and as a teaching moment for other New-to-CHL who might come along later and read this thread. It pains me a bit that the OP was made to feel "bad" by some of the responses.... admitting you could be doing things better and asking for help is something that takes courage and should be encouraged here. I thought the OP did a great job relating the situation and asking for input, and should be commended (as some have done) for coming here seeking feedback.

As others have said, carrying on body is far better when something goes bad. You've already learned that stopping and unlocking the glove box takes precious time and forces you to take your eyes off the problem. My advice would be... now that you've had your "awakening" make time to experiment with various methods of carry... find one that works for you. Maybe it's a different holster, maybe a different carry position, maybe a different weapon. "Call 911" is advice you'll get here repeatedly, for good reason. Also, make some time to become even more familiar with self defense law. Charles Cotton does a class on SD law and he's in Houston... try to get his class on your agenda. Don't feel rushed, just make it important and get it done. Taking a CHL class is a great first step, but now that you've had this experience, I suspect you'll realize that it's just a first step and that CHL-ing is best viewed as a long learning experience. I've had a CHL (or equivalent from other states) for >15 years, and I learn new things (and get great suggestions) here every time I log on.

FWIW, your first post tells me that you have the right attitude about CHL, a good ability for self assessment to realize when you could be doing things better, and the maturity to not get goaded into a pointless argument, in the real world as well as here online.

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for sharing your experience. You had many choices to make, many paths you could have followed. The fact that you ended up not having a more serious confrontation is a win, hopefully you see it that way. I hope you'll stick around and continue to learn and contribute.

[Vol Texan]

you should have seen me put my car into park, unlock my glovebox, pull out my 380 and chamber a round... it was quite a hassle. LOL. Now that I look back at it, it was very novice and totally unnecessary.

You've been given some good advice here already about this, so I'll not pile on. Glad you recognize that it put you at a tactical disadvantage.

The 380 I have is very small so fitting it under my leg was similar to putting a phone under your leg.

I can't give you such an easy pass on this one, however. Holsters are not just for carrying your gun. They also keep it from firing because the trigger is fully covered. Once you've removed it from your storage location (holster for most of us, but glove box for you), it is a deadly weapon. I cannot ever imagine that tucking under your leg is an acceptable compromise.

I have a small/cheap 9mm (SCCY CPX 2) that I bought for carrying, but at 5'10" - 135lbs, the 9mm is just a little too bulky for me to carry.

As others have mentioned, you may want to look into different holsters. I carry a full size SigSauer 2022, and it works just fine with the right holster / belt combination. The SCCY is a sweet buy, however. I'm about to pick one up myself as an LCP.

My 380 is a P3AT and it's not as bulky and noticeable when I have it on myself, I got it because of it's size/weight. The reason I don't always carry it is because I can't take into my office and there are several business that I frequent that display the no firearms signs, so I figure its just better to not carry it unless I see myself going into a sketchy part of town.

This next part is not meant to be a 'pile on the new guy' comment. To be honest, even after I took the class, I was somewhat unsure for the first few months about where it is legal / not legal to carry. You mention the 'no firearms signs', but to be honest, I really don't see that many of them. There are VERY few places here in the west side of Houston that I have to disarm, because there really are so few legitimate 30.06 signs out there.

Welcome to the best Forum on the planet. This is your best place to learn the ins-and-outs of CHL here in Texas (and beyond, for those of us that travel often).

[n5wd]

Here's another 'Welcome to the forum', Aus10m!

Lots of good advice for you and for others reading this thread. As others have mentioned, I'm also kinda worried about you sticking a cocked and loaded firearm under your leg (you didn't say which way the muzzle was pointed, but I'd guess it was pointed right at your other thigh - good target for taking someone down, but not so good if you do it yourself). If you don't want to carry either the .380 or the Sccy, you might want to look at a compact 9mm like the Walther PPS (my first choice), the Springfield Armory XDs in 9mm (almost exactly the same size as the PPS - and so is the .45 version of the XDs if you want to get a bigger hole-maker), or any number of small single-stack 9mm's that will do a very good job of being concealable and being powerful enough.

(BTW - you might post a review of the Sccy gun - I've seen the ads, and it looks good, but haven't handled one yet. But, at the price, it might be a good choice for a gift gun for some folks, if it works well).

Ideally, you'll find a good IWB or OWB holster that you can conceal with your 'business' clothes, that'll carry something that you can use most times you're carrying, which in your line of business, would probably be any time of the day/night. I know my realtor doesn't go out of the house unarmed, and that's not in a major urban area like Houston!.

Like others have said - having 9-1-1 listen in after the first go-round of those challenges would have been a good idea. I hope you'll think of that, next time something similar happens.

Again, welcome!

[Wes]

And welcome to the forum and as others have said thanks for sharing!

[thatguy]

Any advice/input is appreciated as I am trying to learn to do the right thing to avoid situations like this.

Welcome to the forum.

Keep driving and call 911.

Get some more training.

Trained guns seem to stay in their holsters...

Get a holster and carry the gun on you.

Find an IDPA shooting club near you.

Lastly, stay with this forum. I am humbled by the amount of knowledge, insight and caring found here.

[Wodathunkit]

Welcome to the forum Aus.

I think you handled yourself well. My opinion is road rage is one of the most indeterminable reasons for armed confrontation. Witness' will play a key role in what happened and our perception of what happen may not match what a third person sees or "thinks they see". I would try my best to flee while calling 911.

I wouldn't have had the same issues as you because I have constant access to my firearm. I suggest you start shopping for really comfortable belts and holsters.

[Abraham]

aus10m,

Did you write down the license number, description of vehicle, or anything that might help identify the threatening person?

Did you then pass on that information to the police along with a report of his behavior?

If not, consider doing it - he knows where you can, at times, be found.

You may never see this person again and probably won't, but if he's nutty enough to behave this way to begin with...

[couzin]

Today, while I was driving to the gym, some teenage looking kid in a honda pilot was driving erratically and weaving in and out of traffic. I ended up going in the same direction as him, and he stared me down at a stop sign and started putting his hands up with a confrontational gesture. Then he pulled in front of me and threw his car into 'park' and opened his door and got out of his car putting his hands up again. I drove around him.

Is there is more to this than you are relating? Did you engage in the same behavior? If the kid was acting a fool - why not just let them go on down the road! When the kid cut you off and got out - THAT is when you dial 911, plus doing what you did (escape plan A). But then you should have turned into a convenience store or something. Don't think of it as a sitting duck - more like witnesses... I am not accusing you of bad behaviour - simply, folks with carry permits or weapons legally on board know full well they are not correctors of bad behavior in others.

[The Annoyed Man]

Back when I was still living in California, I ran into someone with road rage on the way home from work one day. Of course, it being a socialist worker's paradise, I had no firearm on me. . . . .but the other guys sure as heck did, as he threatened me with it. I had committed the cardinal sin of changing from the right light to the left lane to get around a slow moving bus, at the same time he did, when he was behind me. He caught up to me at the next stop light and pulled alongside, and that's when he showed me his large frame semi auto man-card enlarger. When the light changed right after that, I outsmarted him in traffic and got away from him. This happened 15-20 miles from my home, and he never saw where I went beyond about a block after I got away from him. Today, 10 years later, I have to say that, if that same situation had happened to me here in Texas, I would have handled it the exact same way, even though I carry a gun now every day. The primary comfort of the gun for me is if he succeeds in following me any distance after that. If I know that he is following me, I'll head straight to the Grapevine police station and phone them on the way. If I don't know he is following, and he has followed me home, that's what the gun—and cellphone—is for if he doesn't back off.

I'm not looking for any kind of fight. I'm too old for that. But also, being too old to want a fight and too gimpy to get physical, I'm also not very patient with foolishness. I'll do almost anything within reason to avoid it, but there is a limit.

[MotherBear]

I have a small/cheap 9mm (SCCY CPX 2) that I bought for carrying, but at 5'10" - 135lbs, the 9mm is just a little too bulky for me to carry. My 380 is a P3AT and it's not as bulky and noticeable when I have it on myself, I got it because of it's size/weight. The reason I don't always carry it is because I can't take into my office and there are several business that I frequent that display the no firearms signs, so I figure its just better to not carry it unless I see myself going into a sketchy part of town.

Just going back to the side issue here... FWIW, I'm 5'8" and somewhere in the 120-130 lb. range. I've been able to conceal a Smith & Wesson M&P 9 compact with no trouble, wearing my usual clothes. Crossbreed Supertuck and a good belt at about 4 o'clock. My usual carry choice is the M&P Shield (single stack, slightly narrower) in a Crossbreed Minituck in the same position. If you wanted to get something larger than what you're carrying now, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at what you can conceal with the right gear. Not saying you have to, but if you do want a 9mm and concealment concerns are what's stopping you, you've got options.

[pops1982]

I've been carrying ever since Obama was elected for his first term and have never even been close to needing to use it but I would think you will know when you need to use it because you will be scared to death of death. That's as far as your safety or one of your loved ones safety goes. As far as protecting your property that is a much tougher issue, at least for me. I'm not sure I own anything worth killing for as long as a life is not threatened during the robbery. Don't get me wrong, if they are armed and robbing me I will take that as a threat to my life but if I hear my car alarm going off and they are pulling out of my driveway with my car I don't think I shoot them. I pray I will never need to use my weapon.
Just my 2 cents.

[bizarrenormality]

I have worked at a gun range in the sporting clays as a trapper, during my High School years and I used to sort the reload-able hulls when the range was slow. I learned how to clean birds at the age of 11. I grew up in the desert of El Paso shooting all kinds of guns and some of my friends dads were military at Ft Bliss, so we had a wide range of guns to shoot. Gun handling/shooting/hunting I've been doing since 1990 (when I was 10 years old). So what I am getting to is, this type of experience isn't something lack.

I have legally carried a handgun for close to 15 years now and I'm still not much of an aerial shotgunner but maybe the osmotic learning process flows better the other way. Good luck and welcome to the forum.

[Jumping Frog]

.... you're allowed to use it if your vehicle window is broken by someone while you're in your car (during a robbery or assault).

So my question is: In a situation like this, would I have had to wait for him to try to break my window in order to take any action?

You have gotten a lot of other advice and I am not going to regurgitate everything. But I did want to address this specific point.

In the Texas self defense statutes, it is important to understand the distinction offered by "presumed reasonable".

First, both Sec. 9.31 and Sec. 9.32 use the phrase "when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary" or "when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary"

So for ambiguous circumstances, it becomes the duty of the defense to explain, demonstrate, and prove why the actor "reasonably believed" force or deadly force was "immediately necessary". If you get into an argument on a street corner that ends up leading to force or deadly force, you better be able to explain why.

However, there are also cases where the actor's actions are "presumed reasonable", meaning there is no longer the duty to prove why the actor "reasonably believed" force or deadly force was "immediately necessary". This is a HUGE point and the practical importance is crucial for every CHL to understand. These should be memorized.

For self-defense deadly force, the "presumed reasonable" cases are:

Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
(a)....
(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B); (NOTE: which are "aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery")

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

Now, back to your original question:

.... you're allowed to use it if your vehicle window is broken by someone while you're in your car (during a robbery or assault).

So my question is: In a situation like this, would I have had to wait for him to try to break my window in order to take any action?

You can see from above, that the simple fact of trying to unlawfully enter your vehicle with force means use of deadly force is "presumed reasonable". You do not need to wait to see what his intentions are (robbery vs assault or anything else).

Also, when you consider the phrase "attempting to enter unlawfully and with force", it is not required that the other person actually breaks the window. For example, if the person lifts your door handle in an attempt to open the door, deadly force is presumed reasonable. If the other person raises a crowbar or baseball in preparation to swing it against the window, that is "attempting to enter". If the person punches the window, that is "attempting to enter". Do you see where the line is?