rotor wrote:Perhaps one of our LEOs can tell us how an off duty officer can be identified as being a LEO and not just a security guard. I am assuming that there is no obligation in this case to show ID to a security guard and it appears doubtful from the explanation that even if the security guard was an LEO that the showing of ID was required since the person was not under arrest.
A security guard has no more authority than any private citizen. No requirment to ID to one. And you are right, under the situation as described, there was no legal requirment to ID to the peace officer.
cb1000rider wrote:I *think* that the legal issue is one of authority and jurisdiction. The authority runs 24/7/365 within the jurisdiction.
There are only two sub-questions that I can think of that might make a difference:
1) Departmental policy.
2) Context around when can an officer demand ID. If you were in a private venue, the management could simply require it if you were wanting to stay. If the "misunderstanding" is of possible criminal nature, then you might have been party to an investigation, in which case the LEO can demand ID.
The misunderstanding was that I went in to request a refund. The manager didn't like it, got mad, and threw me out.
The officer referred to it as a "disturbance", as the manager alleged I raised my voice (again according to the recording, I didn't)
He said / She said and I'll guess officer wasn't there when the incident occurred. He has authority to intervene on a breach of the peace and asking for ID would be part of that. His badge was probably on his jacket that he had taken off.
Sure, he can ask, but a person is under no legal obligation to ID unless under arrest or engaged in a licensed activity.
cb1000rider wrote:I *think* that the legal issue is one of authority and jurisdiction. The authority runs 24/7/365 within the jurisdiction.
There are only two sub-questions that I can think of that might make a difference:
1) Departmental policy.
2) Context around when can an officer demand ID. If you were in a private venue, the management could simply require it if you were wanting to stay. If the "misunderstanding" is of possible criminal nature, then you might have been party to an investigation, in which case the LEO can demand ID.
The misunderstanding was that I went in to request a refund. The manager didn't like it, got mad, and threw me out.
The officer referred to it as a "disturbance", as the manager alleged I raised my voice (again according to the recording, I didn't)
He said / She said and I'll guess officer wasn't there when the incident occurred. He has authority to intervene on a breach of the peace and asking for ID would be part of that. His badge was probably on his jacket that he had taken off.
Sure, he can ask, but a person is under no legal obligation to ID unless under arrest or engaged in a licensed activity.
When you get detained by a LEO and refuse to ID let us know how that works for you
cb1000rider wrote:I *think* that the legal issue is one of authority and jurisdiction. The authority runs 24/7/365 within the jurisdiction.
There are only two sub-questions that I can think of that might make a difference:
1) Departmental policy.
2) Context around when can an officer demand ID. If you were in a private venue, the management could simply require it if you were wanting to stay. If the "misunderstanding" is of possible criminal nature, then you might have been party to an investigation, in which case the LEO can demand ID.
The misunderstanding was that I went in to request a refund. The manager didn't like it, got mad, and threw me out.
The officer referred to it as a "disturbance", as the manager alleged I raised my voice (again according to the recording, I didn't)
He said / She said and I'll guess officer wasn't there when the incident occurred. He has authority to intervene on a breach of the peace and asking for ID would be part of that. His badge was probably on his jacket that he had taken off.
Sure, he can ask, but a person is under no legal obligation to ID unless under arrest or engaged in a licensed activity.
When you get detained by a LEO and refuse to ID let us know how that works for you
Right or wrong, you're going to have a much better day letting the officer see your DL.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member
rotor wrote:Perhaps one of our LEOs can tell us how an off duty officer can be identified as being a LEO and not just a security guard. I am assuming that there is no obligation in this case to show ID to a security guard and it appears doubtful from the explanation that even if the security guard was an LEO that the showing of ID was required since the person was not under arrest.
A security guard has no more authority than any private citizen. No requirment to ID to one. And you are right, under the situation as described, there was no legal requirment to ID to the peace officer.
However, a peace officer is a peace officer anywhere in Texas regardless of duty.
I'd have kindly told him he's not getting my ID and I'd leave. If you guys are really in the habit of just throwing your ID at anyone with a patch on their arm, then you go ahead and enjoy doing that.
cb1000rider wrote:I *think* that the legal issue is one of authority and jurisdiction. The authority runs 24/7/365 within the jurisdiction.
There are only two sub-questions that I can think of that might make a difference:
1) Departmental policy.
2) Context around when can an officer demand ID. If you were in a private venue, the management could simply require it if you were wanting to stay. If the "misunderstanding" is of possible criminal nature, then you might have been party to an investigation, in which case the LEO can demand ID.
The misunderstanding was that I went in to request a refund. The manager didn't like it, got mad, and threw me out.
The officer referred to it as a "disturbance", as the manager alleged I raised my voice (again according to the recording, I didn't)
He said / She said and I'll guess officer wasn't there when the incident occurred. He has authority to intervene on a breach of the peace and asking for ID would be part of that. His badge was probably on his jacket that he had taken off.
Sure, he can ask, but a person is under no legal obligation to ID unless under arrest or engaged in a licensed activity.
When you get detained by a LEO and refuse to ID let us know how that works for you
I am open to learning. What could the LEO do? Yes, I know the rhetoric about not beating the ride and all of the other silly answers. I am asking what, legally, he could do.
cb1000rider wrote:I *think* that the legal issue is one of authority and jurisdiction. The authority runs 24/7/365 within the jurisdiction.
There are only two sub-questions that I can think of that might make a difference:
1) Departmental policy.
2) Context around when can an officer demand ID. If you were in a private venue, the management could simply require it if you were wanting to stay. If the "misunderstanding" is of possible criminal nature, then you might have been party to an investigation, in which case the LEO can demand ID.
The misunderstanding was that I went in to request a refund. The manager didn't like it, got mad, and threw me out.
The officer referred to it as a "disturbance", as the manager alleged I raised my voice (again according to the recording, I didn't)
He said / She said and I'll guess officer wasn't there when the incident occurred. He has authority to intervene on a breach of the peace and asking for ID would be part of that. His badge was probably on his jacket that he had taken off.
Sure, he can ask, but a person is under no legal obligation to ID unless under arrest or engaged in a licensed activity.
When you get detained by a LEO and refuse to ID let us know how that works for you
Right or wrong, you're going to have a much better day letting the officer see your DL.
I agree. In the situation the OP described I would have shown ID. But I think he asked if he was required to show.
rotor wrote:Perhaps one of our LEOs can tell us how an off duty officer can be identified as being a LEO and not just a security guard. I am assuming that there is no obligation in this case to show ID to a security guard and it appears doubtful from the explanation that even if the security guard was an LEO that the showing of ID was required since the person was not under arrest.
A security guard has no more authority than any private citizen. No requirment to ID to one. And you are right, under the situation as described, there was no legal requirment to ID to the peace officer.
However, a peace officer is a peace officer anywhere in Texas regardless of duty.
I'd have kindly told him he's not getting my ID and I'd leave. If you guys are really in the habit of just throwing your ID at anyone with a patch on their arm, then you go ahead and enjoy doing that.
We are discussing this particular incident. In this particular incident I do not believe the OP doubts that the guy is a police officer. So, this isn't just a guy with patches on his shirt.
And yes, I will show my ID to whom I please.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member
cb1000rider wrote:I *think* that the legal issue is one of authority and jurisdiction. The authority runs 24/7/365 within the jurisdiction.
There are only two sub-questions that I can think of that might make a difference:
1) Departmental policy.
2) Context around when can an officer demand ID. If you were in a private venue, the management could simply require it if you were wanting to stay. If the "misunderstanding" is of possible criminal nature, then you might have been party to an investigation, in which case the LEO can demand ID.
The misunderstanding was that I went in to request a refund. The manager didn't like it, got mad, and threw me out.
The officer referred to it as a "disturbance", as the manager alleged I raised my voice (again according to the recording, I didn't)
He said / She said and I'll guess officer wasn't there when the incident occurred. He has authority to intervene on a breach of the peace and asking for ID would be part of that. His badge was probably on his jacket that he had taken off.
Sure, he can ask, but a person is under no legal obligation to ID unless under arrest or engaged in a licensed activity.
When you get detained by a LEO and refuse to ID let us know how that works for you
Right or wrong, you're going to have a much better day letting the officer see your DL.
I agree. In the situation the OP described I would have shown ID. But I think he asked if he was required to show.
Given the debate so far and the lack of resolution, I suggest that the best way to get that question answered is by consulting an attorney versed in the subject. In the meanwhile, my suggestion in such cases is to do exactly what he did which seems to have worked out pretty well.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member
A LEO working an extra job is still a LEO. In the instance the OP stated that the manager of a store reported a disturbance, and stated the OP was the one creating a disturbance.
The LEO has every right to ID the possible suspect to investigate the alleged complaint. In this case in doing so, the LEO quickly determined the OP had not committed any crime or disturbance and ceased his investigation and permitted the OP to go about his business.
It sounds to me like the LEO. Did his job and did it well.
dac1842 wrote:A LEO working an extra job is still a LEO. In the instance the OP stated that the manager of a store reported a disturbance, and stated the OP was the one creating a disturbance.
The LEO has every right to ID the possible suspect to investigate the alleged complaint. In this case in doing so, the LEO quickly determined the OP had not committed any crime or disturbance and ceased his investigation and permitted the OP to go about his business.
It sounds to me like the LEO. Did his job and did it well.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member
dac1842 wrote:A LEO working an extra job is still a LEO. In the instance the OP stated that the manager of a store reported a disturbance, and stated the OP was the one creating a disturbance. The LEO has every right to ID the possible suspect to investigate the alleged complaint. In this case in doing so, the LEO quickly determined the OP had not committed any crime or disturbance and ceased his investigation and permitted the OP to go about his business.
It sounds to me like the LEO. Did his job and did it well.
I don't agree the LEO has "every right to ID" while investigating a possible criminal offense. TPC 38.02 says he only has the right to demand ID after he makes an arrest.
I'm sure I would have given the guy my ID. I very likely (I'm even leaning towards "probably") would have asked him to run her ID for wants and warrants as well, since she too was involved in the disturbance.
With the dramatic increase in people impersonating a police officer it is understandable the hesitation many have about being confronted by the police, especially when you don't see a marked unit.
there are two things every police officer will have in his possession. 1- his department identification card 2- his TELCOSE card.
If you are not sure, ask for both. Yes it might irritate him, but most officers will understand.
