Today at the gun range

[Carry-a-Kimber]

So would this be like running a parking garage and requiring everyone to show a bill of sale for their cars?

More like making them have current registration tags. I have the bill of sale for a couple of Title II items right now but I can't legally possess them until I get my stamps back.

[MasterOfNone]

So would this be like running a parking garage and requiring everyone to show a bill of sale for their cars?

More like making them have current registration tags. I have the bill of sale for a couple of Title II items right now but I can't legally possess them until I get my stamps back.

Is the owner of such items required to carry the stamps wherever they take the items? If not, then as far as the business-customer interaction, I think it is more like the car bill of sale because it is an additional item you have to know to take with you to meet the business' requirement.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

You are required to carry the stamp with the item.

[03Lightningrocks]

So would this be like running a parking garage and requiring everyone to show a bill of sale for their cars?

A better analogy would be running a parking garage and requiring anyone driving a lotus show their bill of sale.

But yeah... It is the right of any business owner to run their business how they see fit. That over rides our right to demand they run their business how we see fit.

In return, customers can choose to do business with businesses that do things agreeable to them. It's called free market principals and has nothing to do with the RKBA.

[gringo pistolero]

Everybody agrees business owners have a right to be jack-wagons.

[Texas Sheepdog]

A range owner has no responsbility to take on quasi-law enforcement duties. Just sticking their nose into something they have no need to control. If someone is there with an illegal suppressor, the range owner has committed no crime.

That's correct but in my experience there are a lot of LEO wanna-be types working at shooting ranges.

[03Lightningrocks]

Everybody agrees business owners have a right to be jack-wagons.

Yep... And we get the last laugh on the ones who do by taking our money elsewhere.

I had quit going to a place called Bullet Trap a year and a half ago because the folks working there were getting a bit belligerent, to put it kindly. I just joined a place in Frisco that is owned by a guy who purchased Bullet trap a year or so ago. He is putting serious effort into correcting the customer service issues. So far I am happy with the Frisco Gun Club but if the "bullet trap mentality" starts showing up, I am out of there.

[TomsTXCHL]

Dunno the Bullet Trap but can imagine that owning a retail establishment and dealing with the Unwashed Masses first of all is no walk-in-the-park, but to do so with a business dealing with firearms (and we must all admit here that we are-or-can-be opinionated-and-difficult) has to be a challenge indeed.

Not to mention that there are "outsiders" (unhappy neighbors, legions of gun-grabbers) on one's case constantly.

Our local LGS has some extraordinarily nice people who own-and-operate it, and I wonder myself how they Stay so nice...

[03Lightningrocks]

Dunno the Bullet Trap but can imagine that owning a retail establishment and dealing with the Unwashed Masses first of all is no walk-in-the-park, but to do so with a business dealing with firearms (and we must all admit here that we are-or-can-be opinionated-and-difficult) has to be a challenge indeed.

Not to mention that there are "outsiders" (unhappy neighbors, legions of gun-grabbers) on one's case constantly.

Our local LGS has some extraordinarily nice people who own-and-operate it, and I wonder myself how they Stay so nice...

I want to first be clear that I was not trying to pick on bullet trap. It just happened to be a place I experienced a change that I was not comfortable with. From what I hear, that is all a thing of the past.

With that said, I can only imagine the frustration these places go through dealing with everything from new gun owners to the absolute "know it all". I try real hard to be pleasant and not make their lives harder than it already is.

Every place I have ever shot has their own set of rules, some made sense to me and some didn't. I either went along or went somewhere else. I respect the fact that it is their business to run as they please.

[The_Busy_Mom]

I finished my business on the shooting range and exited. While I was waiting for the range manager to check me out, the guy next in line to go on to the range popped his large tactical rifle bag up on the counter and proceeded to partially unload the content. Since the facility I was at requires rifles to be trigger-locked while carrying them through the store, he was first of all miffed about having to have the range manager unlock his rifle. The guy hauls out shooting glasses, some targets, a silencer, and the rifle he's going to shoot. [insert sound of tires screeching to a halt] The range manager asks if he has the paperwork for silencer. The room goes kind of quiet. The guy becomes a bit confrontational, and asks the range manger if he is a LEO, to which the range manager says no, and then proceeds to politely explain that range requires the permit for the silencer to be presented, and that the police would be called if the permit cannot be produced. The guy gets out his phone and pulls up an image, then shoves the phone at the range manger and with demands of the range manager "do you know what that is?" The range manager examines the image on the phone and says "no, don't have any idea." The guy says "Its a dealer stamp". The range manager says "ok", and then dropped the issue..

I'm looking for a bit of education here, but am mostly just curious.

Was the range manager entitled to ask to see the permit for the silencer? I'm assuming it would be some sort of federal permit.
Entitled is a good choice of words here. He is acting entitled, but if that is the policy of the business, we abide by the policy. As mentioned already, you need your tax stamp, that shows you have paid the federal tax, for each NFA item. There is no permit, just a 'stamp' that acts as a receipt for tax paid. Unless the manager actually checked the serial number on the silencer against the serial number on the stamp, what did the manager really accomplish?

Would being a firearms dealer convey the proper level of permission to possess and deploy the silencer in that setting?
No, just being a firearms dealer doesn't get you permission to have a silencer. As a dealer or manufacturer, you have to submit an application/fee to be able to deal/manufacture these special items (silencers, short barreled guns, AOW). Dealers that have received their Special Occupational Tax (SOT) receipt that allows these types of items may take them to the range and shoot/demo them, but only if allowed at the range and the dealer is following the range's policies. Dealers have a different form they would take if the dealer company owns the silencer and not an individual/trust.

Is the image of a dealer license on a phone good enough, or should the actual permit for the silencer been required?
The image of the stamp for that particular item, on a phone, is OK, but really the stamp should be with the item at all times. It might have flown at the range, but probably would get you a ride if you came into contact with a LEO and could not produce the actual stamp. This really comes into play when a trust owns the actual item. What's to say you didn't just grab a copy of a stamp issued to a trust you do not belong to? Stamp should be with the item.

I learned one thing today for sure: Don't mess with the old guy behind the counter at the range!

My comments in red.
TBM

[jminn1]

TBM,

Thank you for the clear, concise answers. Much appreciated.

jminn1

[CEOofEVIL]

For what it's worth, the time I spent working at a range, employees were not instructed to ask about paperwork for NFA items. Usually folks would either volunteer the paperwork (which no one was interested in seeing) or they would just not bring it up. We were only told that Full Auto was not allowed. Saw a few SBR's, but a ton of suppressors came through. One chap that always brought stuff in was an SOT and he made sure everyone in the store knew that (he was a bit, ah, shall we say...braggadocious). Somewhat tangentially, one of the guys who did voluntarily show his stamp actually called frantically a few hours after he left because he couldn't find it - DOH!