TABC Sign Posting Rules/Laws

[brhalltx]

Are there any TABC rules/laws about where/how the blue and red signs are to be posted? I've seen them everywhere from behind a bar (with other things posted over them) to the back door (not an entrance) in a dimly lit hallway. If it's a 51% sign, you've committed a felony before you could possibly see the sign.
I don't see anything on the TABC web site about requirements specifying where the signs are to be posted. They certainly don't seem to be conspicuous.

[Scott Farkus]

Along these same lines, are businesses allowed to alter the TABC signs in any way? For example, I noticed a wine bar on Congress Ave. in Austin the other day that had a sign with the language of the 51% sign in the front window, but not the actual numerals "51%". I would assume that this place is in fact a 51% establishment as they are in fact a wine bar that serves only appetizer type food, but why are they allowed to alter the sign?

[A-R]

If the sign is not visible before you enter the 51% location then you likely have a defense to prosecution, but you have to read down to (k) under PC 46.035 to find it. As soon as you do see the sign, leave.

(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

[A-R]

Along these same lines, are businesses allowed to alter the TABC signs in any way? For example, I noticed a wine bar on Congress Ave. in Austin the other day that had a sign with the language of the 51% sign in the front window, but not the actual numerals "51%". I would assume that this place is in fact a 51% establishment as they are in fact a wine bar that serves only appetizer type food, but why are they allowed to alter the sign?

Sign rules below from Government Code. Whether the sign you describe fails go provide "effective notice" per PC 46.035 .... I dunno. "effective notice" is not defined for 51% sign like it is for PC 30.06 sign.

Sec. 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES. (a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

[Panzer Possum]

shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign

The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height.

It sounds like you have a defense to prosecution if you don't walk past a sign with a five inch 51% in red.

[Keith B]

shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign

The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height.

It sounds like you have a defense to prosecution if you don't walk past a sign with a five inch 51% in red.

It will depend on what the courts determine is 'effective notice'.

TPC 46.035
(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

[Panzer Possum]

I guess some activist judge could decide a yellow daffodil is effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code, as easily as they could decide a sign that doesn't meet the requirements is effective notice, but I won't spend much time worrying about it.

Anyway, concealed is concealed.

[Keith B]

I guess some activist judge could decide a yellow daffodil is effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code, same as anything else that doesn't meet the requirements, but I won't spend much time worrying about it.

I've seen 51% signs that at one time were red, but the sun had faded them so they were now grey. So, while it may not meet the letter of the law any longer, is it still effective notice? That is the issue.

My personal guidelines are if if I don't see a sign that attempts 51% and I don't know it was a 51% locaiton, then I have a good argument for defense. Anything that looks even similar to a 51% sign I will be validating the location to see if it is legitimately 51%.

[cb1000rider]

My guideline is that I either look it up, or I do a long walk to the bathroom if I'm not sure..
Like you guys indicate, they're not always posted up front. Defense to prosecution or not, if I spot it, I abide by it..

[jbarn]

If the sign is not visible before you enter the 51% location then you likely have a defense to prosecution, but you have to read down to (k) under PC 46.035 to find it. As soon as you do see the sign, leave.

(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

It is important to note that a defense to prosecution is not a defense from prosecution. One can be arrested, charged and taken to trial for an offense where an obvious defense to prosecution exists.

The law does not make it unlawful to carry past a 51% sign. It makes it unlawful to carry into a 51% location. Wrongly posted signs can be ignored without legal consequence, and places that are 51% but fail to post are still off limits.

I think looking for loopholes like faded signs or signs not posted at entrances is looking to be arrested and spending a ton of money. If it talks like a bar and quacks like a bar.....

[bigbang]

It is important to note that a defense to prosecution is not a defense from prosecution. One can be arrested, charged and taken to trial for an offense where an obvious defense to prosecution exists.

That's true. Theoretically someone could be arrested and prosecuted for checking their firearm as baggage in accordance with the law, because that's a defense to prosecution like no 51% sign. However, there's no defense to prosecution for a CHL who displays a handgun to demonstrate it's unloaded. How much you worry about those things is up to you.

[jbarn]

It is important to note that a defense to prosecution is not a defense from prosecution. One can be arrested, charged and taken to trial for an offense where an obvious defense to prosecution exists.

That's true. Theoretically someone could be arrested and prosecuted for checking their firearm as baggage in accordance with the law, because that's a defense to prosecution like no 51% sign. However, there's no defense to prosecution for a CHL who displays a handgun to demonstrate it's unloaded. How much you worry about those things is up to you.

How does displaying a handgun to demonstrate its unloaded relate to the question at hand? Are you referring to flying with your handgun? One does not need a CHL to take your handgun on a flight. Under 46.15(b) or the penal code, there is no offense of carrying a handgun under penal code 46.02 for a person traveling. A person traveling can open or concealed carry. Taking your handgun out at the ticket counter to demonstrate it is unloaded is not a violation of any law. No defense to prosecution is needed.

I love these forums..... The different mindsets and points of view are interesting to me

Some folks worry an uninformed officer would arrest them for doing something that is not illegal, and others are unconcerned that they could ever be charged with an offense if there is a defense to prosecution available. Two opposite ends of the spectrum.


After rereading your post, I think perhaps you referring to the pc 46.03 defense to prosecution for carrying a firearm in or into the secured area of an airport. When you used the word "display" I thought you were referring to the pc 46.035 violation of intentionally displaying a handgun in a public place in plain view of another.

Frankly, I do not understand why that defense is even needed. When you check your baggage you do not carry it in or into the secured area of an airport. Even without the defense I don't see what they could charge you with. Maybe I am missing something......

[howdy]

It is important to note that a defense to prosecution is not a defense from prosecution. One can be arrested, charged and taken to trial for an offense where an obvious defense to prosecution exists.

That's true. Theoretically someone could be arrested and prosecuted for checking their firearm as baggage in accordance with the law, because that's a defense to prosecution like no 51% sign. However, there's no defense to prosecution for a CHL who displays a handgun to demonstrate it's unloaded. How much you worry about those things is up to you.

How does displaying a handgun to demonstrate its unloaded relate to the question at hand? Are you referring to flying with your handgun? One does not need a CHL to take your handgun on a flight. Under 46.15(b) or the penal code, there is no offense of carrying a handgun under penal code 46.02 for a person traveling. A person traveling can open or concealed carry. Taking your handgun out at the ticket counter to demonstrate it is unloaded is not a violation of any law. No defense to prosecution is needed.

I love these forums..... The different mindsets and points of view are interesting to me

Some folks worry an uninformed officer would arrest them for doing something that is not illegal, and others are unconcerned that they could ever be charged with an offense if there is a defense to prosecution available. Two opposite ends of the spectrum.


After rereading your post, I think perhaps you referring to the pc 46.03 defense to prosecution for carrying a firearm in or into the secured area of an airport. When you used the word "display" I thought you were referring to the pc 46.035 violation of intentionally displaying a handgun in a public place in plain view of another.

Frankly, I do not understand why that defense is even needed. When you check your baggage you do not carry it in or into the secured area of an airport. Even without the defense I don't see what they could charge you with. Maybe I am missing something......

Would you kindly elaborate more on the statement in red above.

[nightmare]

Would you kindly elaborate more on the statement in red above.

Yes please. That they needed to pass MPA says "traveling" has a special meaning in the penal code that doesn't include going from one place to another.

[nightmare]

Are there any TABC rules/laws about where/how the blue and red signs are to be posted? I've seen them everywhere from behind a bar (with other things posted over them) to the back door (not an entrance) in a dimly lit hallway. If it's a 51% sign, you've committed a felony before you could possibly see the sign.
I don't see anything on the TABC web site about requirements specifying where the signs are to be posted. They certainly don't seem to be conspicuous.

Getting back on topic, here's the TABC webpage for signs. https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/sign_requirements.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;