Open Carry Texas holds demonstration in Longview

[The Annoyed Man]

Why not try to sit down with them over a glass of your favorite and lend them some wisdom? Provide them with the kind of leadership that might have a chance at altering their tactics to enhance other efforts rather than detract from the overall strategy? I think you sniping at them and them sniping at you is a losers strategy. Or is it not worth the effort to go see if you can work with them and change what will surely happen if you just sit back and snipe? Even if they reject any efforts to work with them, would it not be better to at least have tried?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but.....seriously? It's not like these conversations haven't already taken place. When you try often enough, and the answer that keeps comes back from them is that you don't love the 2nd Amendment or that you're a closet socialist because you won't embrace their tactics, who's shooting whom in the foot? Tell me, who got more done for the cause of equal rights and racial reconciliation.......Martin Luther King Jr., or Elijah Muhammed? Both were active in the civil rights cause, but MLK accomplished far more than Muhammed. All Muhammed did was drive the wedge between black and white Americans even deeper. The most radical, in your face, OC protesters are the Elijah Muhammeds of the gun world. They scare the rest of the public, removing any common ground on which we can meet to convince them that gun owners/carriers are not the danger to them that they fear. Meanwhile, the rest of us to are in it for the long haul and recognize that it is a long fight, are the MLKs of the gun world. We are bridge-builders, not bridge-wreckers.

I no longer try to reason with people like this because the most vocal of them—the instigators—have already proven that they can't be reasoned with. Wrestling with a pig just gets you covered in pig slop, and it annoys the pig. I call these people fools because they have already refused to listen to wisdom......not because I never tried to lend them any of it.

[Beiruty]

OC and CHL communities should drop their differences and build a strategy to further our 2ndA right. All other blame mud slinging is destructive. Only constrctive and positive attitude is the winning approach.

[getsome]

OC and CHL communities should drop their differences and build a strategy to further our 2ndA right. All other blame mud slinging is destructive. Only constrctive and positive attitude is the winning approach.

I'll second that!

[ShootDontTalk]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but.....seriously? It's not like these conversations haven't already taken place. When you try often enough, and the answer that keeps comes back from them is that you don't love the 2nd Amendment or that you're a closet socialist because you won't embrace their tactics, who's shooting whom in the foot?

I apologize if I missed a sit down meeting with OCT. Perhaps you can remember when and where that took place? And not to be disrespectful or argumentative, but meeting over a keyboard on the internet accomplishes nothing. I would simply point out the many repetitive discussions of OC here on this forum. Lot of mud slinging and little else. Has anyone ever called a sit-down meeting with these folks?

Tell me, who got more done for the cause of equal rights and racial reconciliation.......Martin Luther King Jr., or Elijah Muhammed? Both were active in the civil rights cause, but MLK accomplished far more than Muhammed. All Muhammed did was drive the wedge between black and white Americans even deeper. The most radical, in your face, OC protesters are the Elijah Muhammeds of the gun world.

Again, respectfully, were you ever present at a MLK march? If you were, can you with all intellectual honesty say the mere presence of a large group of people of color marching through downtown was not seen as the ultimate in-your-face event? They didn't need to carry guns to bring the haters out of the woodwork. People were scared. Surely you haven't forgotten the images of the cops with billy clubs and dogs? And surely you know that the kind of rhetoric you offer makes any kind of working together toward a common goal impossible?

They scare the rest of the public, removing any common ground on which we can meet to convince them that gun owners/carriers are not the danger to them that they fear. Meanwhile, the rest of us to are in it for the long haul and recognize that it is a long fight, are the MLKs of the gun world. We are bridge-builders, not bridge-wreckers.

Again, respectfully, no. I am also under no illusion that the reason I am accepted in my travels is because my weapon is hidden. I sense there is a perceived difference between those, like you and me, who carry a gun loaded and ready to be used in a moments notice with someone carrying an unloaded rifle. You honestly think you won't scare the nervous nellies if your concealed firearm ever is seen or drawn? You honestly think those who witness the horrible scenario of our having to take a human life are ever going to look at us the same? There are a lot of threads on here and stories in the news that would contradict that view. My friend, you and I are the real scary people.

And can we, as a group, really claim we are bridge builders when so many stones are cast so quickly at those who bring the subject of open carry up on this forum? Were I one of them, which I am not, I would never come here. I would hope that I can sit down face to face with an honest man and come to some understanding with him. I'm just as frustrated as anyone else about how some people act. But I refuse to believe everything that could be done has been done.

I no longer try to reason with people like this because the most vocal of them—the instigators—have already proven that they can't be reasoned with. Wrestling with a pig just gets you covered in pig slop, and it annoys the pig. I call these people fools because they have already refused to listen to wisdom......not because I never tried to lend them any of it.

I have no idea how to respond to this, so I won't. I doubt MLK would have put it that way in his frustration, but I think I understand yours. I think I said something similar when my kids reached their teens.

[nightmare]

Why make it so complicated? Some people support the Second Amendment but others want to infringe the right to keep and bear arms. If we let the Obamas and Bloombergs of the world divide us, they win.

[WildBill]

Why make it so complicated? Some people support the Second Amendment but others want to infringe the right to keep and bear arms. If we let the Obamas and Bloombergs of the world divide us, they win.

Because, it is more complicated than some people wish.

[G.A. Heath]

I apologize if I missed a sit down meeting with OCT. Perhaps you can remember when and where that took place? And not to be disrespectful or argumentative, but meeting over a keyboard on the internet accomplishes nothing. I would simply point out the many repetitive discussions of OC here on this forum. Lot of mud slinging and little else. Has anyone ever called a sit-down meeting with these folks?

Actually yes, there has been a sit down phone conversation with C.J. Grisham very recently (04/28/14). This should really go to it's own thread but I guess this will be as good a place to post as any. You can find the web based audio player, and direct download link here: http://opencarryreport.com/010/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or you can just listen to the audio by grabbing it from here: http://traffic.libsyn.com/opencarryreport/OCR-010.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't say much, but you might recognize the other parties. BTW, I would like to publicly thank thank Alice, Charles, and C.J. for their part in this effort.

[Beiruty]

I apologize if I missed a sit down meeting with OCT. Perhaps you can remember when and where that took place? And not to be disrespectful or argumentative, but meeting over a keyboard on the internet accomplishes nothing. I would simply point out the many repetitive discussions of OC here on this forum. Lot of mud slinging and little else. Has anyone ever called a sit-down meeting with these folks?

Actually yes, there has been a sit down phone conversation with C.J. Grisham very recently (04/28/14). This should really go to it's own thread but I guess this will be as good a place to post as any. You can find the web based audio player, and direct download link here: http://opencarryreport.com/010/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or you can just listen to the audio by grabbing it from here: http://traffic.libsyn.com/opencarryreport/OCR-010.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't say much, but you might recognize the other parties. BTW, I would like to publicly thank thank Alice, Charles, and C.J. for their part in this effort.

Nice to know, that TSRA is on board for OC bill in 2015.

[mamabearCali]

I will say as an OC-er of a handgun, legally in my state, I have found the terms used here to be less than helpful. The disparaging terms do not help.

OC-ers want many of the things all 2nd amendment supporters want. We have much more in common than not. If you brand them as nuts and crazies, remember there are people who brand anyone who carries a gun and is not a LEO as a nut and a crazy, and they are not those people.

A baptist and a catholic may disagree on much, but if they come together on what they agree on they can accomplish much. If they call each other names, they will all go down together.

[jmra]

I will say as an OC-er of a handgun, legally in my state, I have found the terms used here to be less than helpful. The disparaging terms do not help.

OC-ers want many of the things all 2nd amendment supporters want. We have much more in common than not. If you brand them as nuts and crazies, remember there are people who brand anyone who carries a gun and is not a LEO as a nut and a crazy, and they are not those people.

A baptist and a catholic may disagree on much, but if they come together on what they agree on they can accomplish much. If they call each other names, they will all go down together.

Your analogy couldn't be more off base. I believe you are far away enough from Texas that you aren't getting the whole picture of what we are dealing with. The vast majority of people on this forum support the passage of an OC bill that does not affect our current CC laws.

The "nuts" and "crazy" people we are talking about are not people who are legitimately concerned about the 2A amendment. It is people who walk thru Walmart with an AR and a film crew knowing that people are going to freak out and that they are going to be asked to leave the property by either the store management or local police. These people's sole objective is 15 minutes of fame from a YouTube video. These people are putting the hard work of people truly concerned about the 2A at great risk.

The "in your face" tactics have not been effective in getting legislation passed here before and it will not be effective in the future.

We can spin this thing however we want but it all boils down to this: Given the backlash that these OC demonstrations are causing on this forum, just think how much they are causing among the general public who elect politicians. Do you think that is helpful or productive? I don't.

[ShootDontTalk]

Thank you for the information G.A. I will give it a listen. I am still of the opinion that politeness, respect and patience can win the day. Maybe the best I can hope for is a simple truce to allow frustrations to subside. But I like the old saying, "If at first you don't succeed, then try, try, again."

My fear is that increasing media attention may eventually highlight the divide between gun owners. If the rift cannot be healed and a unified front presented, we will surely all lose ground. No one will be seen as blameless. (Or painted that way by the media.) If truly nothing can be done, then I, for one, am willing to accept that.

If we are truly dealing with a few egomaniacs who simply want attention, then what I'm suggesting will never work. On the other hand, if OCT keeps growing and they are, as a body, sincere in wanting constructive change, then we have a genuine opportunity.

jmra I don't doubt your belief, but you are wrong. MLK's tactics of shoving the problem in the face of a wider and wider public by calling attention to the abuses, courtesy of the media, did work. I saw it with my own eyes. Those tactics changed the political landscape of the entire nation. We would be gravely mistaken to under estimate the power of even a few people, misguided or not, to effect political change that the vast majority may not be able to stop. We would also be, in my view, mistaken to think throwing potshots and insults at them will actually change what they are doing. The issue is not, "it has never worked here", but rather, "how long before it does?"

[WildBill]

jmra I don't doubt your belief, but you are wrong. MLK's tactics of shoving the problem in the face of a wider and wider public by calling attention to the abuses, courtesy of the media, did work. I saw it with my own eyes. Those tactics changed the political landscape of the entire nation. We would be gravely mistaken to under estimate the power of even a few people, misguided or not, to effect political change that the vast majority may not be able to stop. We would also be, in my view, mistaken to think throwing potshots and insults at them will actually change what they are doing.

This type of tactic eventually did win over and sway popular opinion. But I see this as much different that the OC movement. The biggest difference is that one was a moral and legal issue. In the case of discrimination, people believed that is was legally and morally wrong so they set out to make change. I don't think most people would see OC in this light.

[ShootDontTalk]

This type of tactic eventually did win over and sway popular opinion. But I see this as much different that the OC movement. The biggest difference is that one was a moral and legal issue. In the case of discrimination, people believed that is was legally and morally wrong so they set out to make change. I don't think most people would see OC in this light.

I don't wish to turn this into a history lesson, but you are correct if you mean people outside the deep south set out to correct a moral and legal wrong. In the south, after the Civil War, the issue was much more complex and it festered into a hatred that eventually became codified into unconstitutional laws in many places. Morality was hardly an issue. Irregardless, the issue is not one of worthiness of cause, but tactics. Tactics are not subject to cause. What the tactics overcame in the south was considered by some as a completely lost cause. Most people would never have come face to face with the discrimination without the tactics of MLK and his organization. The protests drew a reaction that highlighted the problem.

None of this should be interpreted as my condoning the use of such tactics. I'm only warning you of the danger in not working with those who use them and the futility of throwing bombs at them.

[jmra]

This type of tactic eventually did win over and sway popular opinion. But I see this as much different that the OC movement. The biggest difference is that one was a moral and legal issue. In the case of discrimination, people believed that is was legally and morally wrong so they set out to make change. I don't think most people would see OC in this light.

I don't wish to turn this into a history lesson, but you are correct if you mean people outside the deep south set out to correct a moral and legal wrong. In the south, after the Civil War, the issue was much more complex and it festered into a hatred that eventually became codified into unconstitutional laws in many places. Morality was hardly an issue. Irregardless, the issue is not one of worthiness of cause, but tactics. Tactics are not subject to cause. What the tactics overcame in the south was considered by some as a completely lost cause. Most people would never have come face to face with the discrimination without the tactics of MLK and his organization. The protests drew a reaction that highlighted the problem.

None of this should be interpreted as my condoning the use of such tactics. I'm only warning you of the danger in not working with those who use them and the futility of throwing bombs at them.

The success of civil rights demonstrations was more about the right leaders at the right time for the movement as anything else. It was also an opportunity for politicians with other agendas to increase their influence by jumping on the bandwagon creating a "perfect storm" for change. If you believe that "perfect storm" condition exist currently for OC and simply needs OC demonstrations to ignite it, then we live on different planets. A "No Guns" sign is not going to pull the same emotional strings with the general public as a "No Blacks" sign did.

[Beiruty]

To give credit to where it is due. The OCT armed demo and distribution of copy of the constitution is working in bring attention and awareness to the OC issue. Also, all the demo so far is conducted on public area street and parks and Local PD is notified when needed. The event is noting but have courteous and positive attitude. As 2ndA supporters, if we can't support those events, or we can not live with those events, then surely something is wrong in our position.