STOP! Let me see your bag!

[jmra]

This thread has made me take a moment and thank the Lord that I'm not working as a security guard at a department store. Looks like a no win situation.

[Texsquatch]

I haven't read any personal attacks, just logical responses from responsible CHL holders.

[McKnife]

You need to sue the retailer for damages among other things, and have the security guard brought up on charges. Anything less is an injustice to you and everyone else.

[sjfcontrol]

I looked into the question regarding a "loss prevention device" setting off an alarm being reasonable suspicion some time ago. I can't remember now, but it may have been California rather than Texas.

Anyway, what I remember is that the alarm was not considered reasonable suspicion because of the high rate of false positives. Loss prevention officers were instructed NOT to hassle suspected individuals unless the officer actually SAW the person attempt to leave with a item he did not pay for. He had to see the person take the item, follow him to make sure the item was not abandoned, and see that the item was not rung up at the register. And most were told not to persue a fleeing individual. I believe all the observations could be done by camera.

I'm surprised the guard actually had pepper spray. I wonder if that was company policy.

Perhaps some of our local lawyers would comment...

Also, SAMs Club and Costco are membership stores and you agree to follow their procedures when you sign up.

I had a similar experience many years ago - though it did not get as far out of control. Actually, in my case it was a fry's type store and I just refused to let him check my purchases. He claimed he was going to take my license plate number and call the police. I shrugged and told him to knock himself out. I left. End of story. I don't think I would handle it that way today. But I do avoid stores that treat their customers as criminals. ( except when I agree to it Sam's\Costco.)

[AlphaBeta]

I haven't read any personal attacks, just logical responses from responsible CHL holders.

Which is what I respectfully asked for. Although I can be honest in saying I am quite surprised by the comments posted. If anyone won't mind my posting as to why I would implore just a little latitude.

I shop at Sams and CostCo as well both for myself personally and for the business I own (CostCo has some awesome deals on lots of stuff!). I know going into that store they have an agreement with me in writing that allows them to search through my bags. I am okay with them doing that as I respectfully requested to join their membership and accepted their prices because of that setup. I knowingly made that concession to my rights for their services. No different then I choose to not shop at a store 30.06 posted because I know prior to my entry that they don't want my weapon in their store, while I disagree with them stating they don't want it in there, they as the owner of the property should have the right to tell me no. Just as I have the ability to refuse to shop there. Or me agreeing to drive a car I need insurance and a drivers license for that privilege.

When it comes to business that are open to the public such as Sam Moon or Wal Mart, Home Depot (or the others posted here), I disagree that they should have the ability to detain and make me prove my innocence of shoplifting because of an imperfect system. For example I have multiple times been setting those sensors off sometimes because of a tag being hidden in a wallet that I bought in a pocket I never put things in. So various stores like Coach I would set off or even Home Depot at one time. For some here they stated that they get waved on through and told to go on. Ask yourselves "Why" is that the case? Is it because they know that the system is imperfect or that you just didn't steal anything and they may have left a tag on? Curious is the reasonable belief Keith pointed out that I set it off and that gave them the ability to detain. I didn't get a policy or a procedure from them that said I need to stop if I set off their sensor... Does one get reasonable belief that a system goes off more often times it isn't a shoplifter than it is?

For me it wasn't out of anger it was out of the fact I shouldn't feel forced to stop just because their system goes off when I have done nothing wrong. Although I am a pretty aware person I didn't hear it go off. My wife was even shocked about how delayed it was in her mind it took like 10 seconds before it went off. As I said in my second post it would be easier for us to let others have free will and not to challenge wrongs. I had stolen nothing nor did I care to. I and my wife make good money to pay for things. I have seen those same people steal things as well. Moral character is an important part to things. As one time I used the self check outs at wal mart one time. I had gotten a small bag of shredded cheese and after having problems with a bin and a -pack of water not scanning the lady went over and helped me out picking up the bottled water that wouldn't scan and the large tub. She scanned the items and placed them in the cart covered the cheese and I had forgotten about it. I got out side of the store and started putting things in the car from the cart and found the bag of cheese. I ran back inside and saw a store manager talking to a lady about cleaning. I apologized and explained what happen she laughed and said she was shocked someone would bother coming back in. Not only was she shocked she gave me a discount on the cheese.

I realize that security guards are a vital part to our safety. No different than I agree police are just as vital and important to my safety. Some part of me says that it won't change unless you point out and move for the change. Sometimes a little defiance goes that way and while it would be easier for Ms. Parks to move to the back of the bus she choose to not do that. She lived with those consequences just as I am sure I will. If one feels that having to prove their innocence at every turn is okay and uses the "I have nothing to hide so why not show" attitude, I think we are going in society of the wrong direction. The thought process that starts there becomes we should prove our innocence not have our guilty proved and that rocky slope bleeds from the private parts of society into the public life I think you have a recipe for disaster. If you justify his actions of "believing I stole something" at face value then I could say that any customer walking in my store is stealing things and go through every item. Why bother with an anti theft device at all? Every system has it's faults, this is no different. Does it help? Look at how many responses here said that they get waived on by other companies.

For those of you that also said "If you have nothing to hide let them see" what would you do if law enforcement wants to search your car? Your House? Your box of personal effects that is got some less than public appropriate pictures? Can you imagine the knock on your door "I believe you are committing a crime and I am going to search your house now", you say no and then BAM you look guilty because you don't want someone going through your personal belongings. Now you that are saying "Well the government has no business in my personal life" why would we give that ability to the private citizen. Why would or should we believe that he had the reasonable belief based on a false positive system (Human forgets to deactivate tag, Tags from other stores can set it off, potential malfunction, etc). Sure this wasn't my house or my car it was my bag though. He saw me pay for something with my bag in hand and walk out with it. He watched me from that register to the door and if he had that reason to believe I stole something then he should have had the reason to see more than inside my bag because I would have to had to have used my mini transporter to beam it into my bag. Or at least stop me before the door because I had done something bad.

I do thank you for your thoughts and feelings. No matter what way you said. I believe no matter what we can all maintain a respectful conversation even if I may been in the wrong in your eyes. I do appreciate your time in responding.

[cb1000rider]

I looked into the question regarding a "loss prevention device" setting off an alarm being reasonable suspicion some time ago. I can't remember now, but it may have been California rather than Texas.
Anyway, what I remember is that the alarm was not considered reasonable suspicion because of the high rate of false positives. Loss prevention officers were instructed NOT to hassle suspected individuals unless the officer actually SAW the person attempt to leave with a item he did not pay for.

Not considered reasonable suspicion by the court or by particular loss prevention? If by the court, I'd love to find the caselaw, especially if it's Texas. Without that, I think it's "reasonable" based on current laws for the "shopkeeper" to detain...

My own experience - Home Depot about 3 weeks ago. Bought some stuff. Set off the alarm, which immediately made me very nervous (while carrying). The gave me the wave-through... Loss prevention detector on two custom doors that had been ordered.

I'm not sure that I would have been as assertive as the OP to get to walk away... Although had I been pepper sprayed, I'm pretty sure that I'd be talking to my attorney.

[jmra]

I have no problem with telling the security guard no. However, my response (assuming I didn't have some place to be or something better to do) would have been to stand my ground while demanding to speak to a manager instead of giving the security guard the impression I was fleeing, an impression I'm sure added to his belief that you had in fact stolen merchandise.
Stopping when confronted by the security guard and calmly stating that you had not taken anything and insisting on talking to a Manager would have prevented things escalating to the point they did. When a manager gets involved and you suggest calling the police you are going to be wished a good day and you get to go on your way knowing the security guard didn't see the same items in your bag that he saw you with at the cash register.
I will add that I have many times been waived off when the alarm went off, but every time that happened I stopped and turned to the person who waived me off. I have never left the impression that I was fleeing or trying to get away from them.
As far as the greeters at the exits at Walmart, they never mess with me. I have my receipt in my hand where it's visible but don't stop, I just keep walking. If they chase after me (hasn't happened yet) I would simply ask for a manager. I'm part Cherokee so I'd probably play the race card if I had to.

[baldeagle]

I think you are missing the point. You couch this whole incident in terms of your rights, but you miss the point that you came close to a very bad situation. Let's look at the relevant part of your post.

According to her I set the sensor off and I continued walking behind me I heard "SIR STOP I WANT TO SEE IN YOUR BAG". Now I didn't know which sir was being called for as I was already outside but my wife said my name and I kept walking. I turned around and said I did nothing wrong I am not stopping. I continued walking to my car with the guy telling me to turn around and show him my bag. I again refused and the security guard kept coming. I turned around put my hands up and said "STOP LEAVE ME ALONE" to which he said show me your bag sir. I again refused and walked he pulled his handcuffs out and said sir don't make me do this I will handcuff you. My reply at that point was "You touch me and I will drop you."

Had you pulled your gun and shot the guard, I can guarantee you that you would be charged with a murder. Your reaction was very extreme for the situation. You didn't even have justification, under the law, for pulling your weapon, much less "dropping him".

You saying you did nothing wrong and you're not stopping is an odd reaction. Most people would have asked the guard if he was referring to them. If he responded yes, they would then ask what the problem was. When he mentioned the alarm going off, most people would have simply shown him the receipt and resolved the situation.

Your reaction was quite similar to what a shoplifter would do. Ignore the guard's commands and keep walking. What is he supposed to think is going on?

Then, when he reacted as expected, you threatened to shoot him? I'm not surprised he used the pepper spray. I wonder what you would have done if he pulled a gun? Have you thought about that? You could be dead or in the hospital due to your own actions. You turned an uncomfortable situation into an extremely dangerous one and for what? Your rights? There's an old saying that applies here. It's better to be swallow your pride than to be right and dead. Of all the things that I think are worth dying for, an argument over a receipt at a store isn't even on the list. If it's really on yours, maybe you need to reconsider your priorities.

[EEllis]

I looked into the question regarding a "loss prevention device" setting off an alarm being reasonable suspicion some time ago. I can't remember now, but it may have been California rather than Texas.
Anyway, what I remember is that the alarm was not considered reasonable suspicion because of the high rate of false positives. Loss prevention officers were instructed NOT to hassle suspected individuals unless the officer actually SAW the person attempt to leave with a item he did not pay for.

Not considered reasonable suspicion by the court or by particular loss prevention? If by the court, I'd love to find the caselaw, especially if it's Texas. Without that, I think it's "reasonable" based on current laws for the "shopkeeper" to detain...

My own experience - Home Depot about 3 weeks ago. Bought some stuff. Set off the alarm, which immediately made me very nervous (while carrying). The gave me the wave-through... Loss prevention detector on two custom doors that had been ordered.

I'm not sure that I would have been as assertive as the OP to get to walk away... Although had I been pepper sprayed, I'm pretty sure that I'd be talking to my attorney.

I did some research and from what I found I don't think there is some big obvious line. If the store has an ounce of sense that SO won't be talking to anyone but their lawyers and when they get done it won't be just the inventory control that contributed to the belief that something was up. There was a case in Texas where someone who did not steal anything and was detained and his detention was held to be reasonable and part of that was the refusal to stop when an inventory control system went off.

[McKnife]

I think you are missing the point. You couch this whole incident in terms of your rights, but you miss the point that you came close to a very bad situation. Let's look at the relevant part of your post.

According to her I set the sensor off and I continued walking behind me I heard "SIR STOP I WANT TO SEE IN YOUR BAG". Now I didn't know which sir was being called for as I was already outside but my wife said my name and I kept walking. I turned around and said I did nothing wrong I am not stopping. I continued walking to my car with the guy telling me to turn around and show him my bag. I again refused and the security guard kept coming. I turned around put my hands up and said "STOP LEAVE ME ALONE" to which he said show me your bag sir. I again refused and walked he pulled his handcuffs out and said sir don't make me do this I will handcuff you. My reply at that point was "You touch me and I will drop you."

Had you pulled your gun and shot the guard, I can guarantee you that you would be charged with a murder. Your reaction was very extreme for the situation. You didn't even have justification, under the law, for pulling your weapon, much less "dropping him".

You saying you did nothing wrong and you're not stopping is an odd reaction. Most people would have asked the guard if he was referring to them. If he responded yes, they would then ask what the problem was. When he mentioned the alarm going off, most people would have simply shown him the receipt and resolved the situation.

Your reaction was quite similar to what a shoplifter would do. Ignore the guard's commands and keep walking. What is he supposed to think is going on?

Then, when he reacted as expected, you threatened to shoot him? I'm not surprised he used the pepper spray. I wonder what you would have done if he pulled a gun? Have you thought about that? You could be dead or in the hospital due to your own actions. You turned an uncomfortable situation into an extremely dangerous one and for what? Your rights? There's an old saying that applies here. It's better to be swallow your pride than to be right and dead. Of all the things that I think are worth dying for, an argument over a receipt at a store isn't even on the list. If it's really on yours, maybe you need to reconsider your priorities.

Nonsense post.

At what point did the OP threaten to shoot? He didn't. You inferred it. "Dropping" someone has different meanings to everyone.

The only one who exhibited criminal behavior is the security guard and he should be held accountable.

[rotor]

For a man carrying a concealed handgun, what does the term "I will drop you mean?" To me that means I will shoot you. Perhaps to others it means something else and that is why I thought that the response of the OP was too aggressive for this nothing of an incident. Who has not had one of these store sensors go off by mistake? Would anyone shoot a security guard for doing his/her job in a situation like this? Show him the bag, be courteous. This is not an invasion of privacy. The gestapo is not breaking down your door. This is an over-reaction and when we carry concealed we must learn to not over react.

[baldeagle]

At what point did the OP threaten to shoot? He didn't. You inferred it. "Dropping" someone has different meanings to everyone.

Why don't you ask him?

The only one who exhibited criminal behavior is the security guard and he should be held accountable.

OK, I'll bite. What law did the security guard break?

[jmra]

I think you are missing the point. You couch this whole incident in terms of your rights, but you miss the point that you came close to a very bad situation. Let's look at the relevant part of your post.

According to her I set the sensor off and I continued walking behind me I heard "SIR STOP I WANT TO SEE IN YOUR BAG". Now I didn't know which sir was being called for as I was already outside but my wife said my name and I kept walking. I turned around and said I did nothing wrong I am not stopping. I continued walking to my car with the guy telling me to turn around and show him my bag. I again refused and the security guard kept coming. I turned around put my hands up and said "STOP LEAVE ME ALONE" to which he said show me your bag sir. I again refused and walked he pulled his handcuffs out and said sir don't make me do this I will handcuff you. My reply at that point was "You touch me and I will drop you."

Had you pulled your gun and shot the guard, I can guarantee you that you would be charged with a murder. Your reaction was very extreme for the situation. You didn't even have justification, under the law, for pulling your weapon, much less "dropping him".

You saying you did nothing wrong and you're not stopping is an odd reaction. Most people would have asked the guard if he was referring to them. If he responded yes, they would then ask what the problem was. When he mentioned the alarm going off, most people would have simply shown him the receipt and resolved the situation.

Your reaction was quite similar to what a shoplifter would do. Ignore the guard's commands and keep walking. What is he supposed to think is going on?

Then, when he reacted as expected, you threatened to shoot him? I'm not surprised he used the pepper spray. I wonder what you would have done if he pulled a gun? Have you thought about that? You could be dead or in the hospital due to your own actions. You turned an uncomfortable situation into an extremely dangerous one and for what? Your rights? There's an old saying that applies here. It's better to be swallow your pride than to be right and dead. Of all the things that I think are worth dying for, an argument over a receipt at a store isn't even on the list. If it's really on yours, maybe you need to reconsider your priorities.

Nonsense post.

At what point did the OP threaten to shoot? He didn't. You inferred it. "Dropping" someone has different meanings to everyone.

The only one who exhibited criminal behavior is the security guard and he should be held accountable.

Based on the information posted by the OP, the police do not believe at this point in time that the SO acted in a criminal manner. It appears they actually showed the OP the portion of the law that legally justified the SOs actions.
Unfortunately, in this situation the OP was his own worst enemy.

[cb1000rider]

The only one who exhibited criminal behavior is the security guard and he should be held accountable.

There's another thread on this. If you're interested, read it... Security guards have great latitude in terms of what they're allowed to do to stop someone who is suspected of stealing. By great latitude, I mean they can't be successfully sued very easily or criminally prosecuted easily.... Under shopkeeper's authority.

The security guard is *probably* at odds with store policy if he pepper sprays someone that is just trying to leave... that's worst-case and it's just a guess.

[EEllis]

I would mention that the legality of such a stop is dependent on the reason for the stop not your guilt or innocence. If you refuse to stop and speak with the store employees then you can't have any idea why they are trying to stop you and as such you can't have any idea if they are acting within the law. They do have the right to stop you. If they are wrong then they can be held liable and, similar to cops, any arrest or case made from their stop would be threatened. They may even be charged with a crime if the behavior is egregious enough. However unless the behavior is truly outrageous it is something that gets sorted out later by the courts. "Ignoring" the detention or escalating it as was done here is a extremely risky business. To the OP, if a court says the security officer was unreasonable in stopping you then you may get a payday of a few dollars. On the other hand you still may end up having assault charges pressed against you. Even from your description it wouldn't be hard to interpret your description as you using a vehicle to try and "move" the security officer and that can result in charges. If his stop is considered legal then you could be civilly sued for your actions against the security officer. At the very least you placed someone in a situation that could have ended with someone hurt very badly and you still don't know what the reasons for him asking you to stop were. All you know is what a cop thought may have caused the issue.