To Chamber or not to Chamber?

[Skiprr]

VoiceofReason, welcome to the Forum.

I won't try to talk you out of your chosen 1911 carry condition: you've decided what works best for you, and that's that.

Thank you, also, for your law enforcement service.

However, I just want to add--so that folks new to shooting and concealed carry don't come away with a misinterpretation--that only a small percentage of LEOs can be considered firearms experts, and only a minority of those have had extensive training in defensive or preemptive use of small arms. Unfortunately, most LEO handgun practice centers around annual requalification and not much else.

Heck, I'm only a handful of years younger than you, and at an advanced training course in 2008 I outperformed the two active SWAT team members in the class in all pistol disciplines. In some of those evolutions by a large margin.

Just the way it is: very few police departments have the budget necessary to provide for more training than that necessary to meet annual qualification. And I think that's a travesty.

Absolutely no denigration meant to you. I assure you.

You posted your LEO status in relation to this subject, and I just don't want any new members of the Forum to see your post and, because of that, take your description of your 1911 carry condition as a good idea.

I respect your decision to carry the way you choose, but I would never teach or advise anyone to follow that example.

[frazzled]

Have there ever been statistics kept of accidental firings from cocked and locked?

[Purplehood]

Aren't all 1911's by default, "half-cocked"?

[srothstein]

No, Purplehood, that may be the owner, but not the pistol.

Skiprr,

As a firearms trainer for law enforcement, I want to agree with you. As a general rule, cops are experienced with the pistol they carry. They may be familiar with a few others since a lot of cops are also gun guys. Being familiar with one is not being expert with it. And there are a lot of cops out there who carry only because they are required to. There are cops today who would do it Andy Griffith style (sheriff without a gun) if they could. I, personally, don't understand that outlook though I concede wit the wishful thinking.

I was taught to carry a 1911 by the Army as an MP. We were also taught to never touch the hammer. But we carried it, by regulation, without a round in the chamber. When I carried it as a duty or off duty weapon in my civilian police career, I still never touch the hammer. I do carry it cocked and locked. And I feel perfectly safe doing so. Please note that I do not consider myself an expert with firearms even as an instructor. There is always more to learn. I post this part just so people can see that there are two officers here that can reasonably disagree on how to do the same thing. Reasonable people can disagree and what works for me may not work for you (and vice versa).

As I said, I carry cocked and locked and feel safe. I do not feel safe trying to lower the hammer on a 1911 that is loaded. This is not to say that anyone is wrong for doing so. I have seen people that did lower the hammer all the way on loaded 1911's. Their time from the holster to a shot being fired was close enough to mine that I cannot say it would slow down a practiced draw. You are responsible for your decisions, which also means you have the authority to make them. Do what feels safe for you.

[sawdust]

I'm not an epert on anything, but that has never stopped me from offering my opinions and views.

Being new to the CHL world, I am going through transitions of thought and philosophy very quickly. While I am not unfamiliar with guns, I am not highly practised with them. In getting ready for the CHL, I took some range time with a Glock. I didn't like it for several reasons, and I haven't "bought into" the concept of the trigger being the sole safety - I have been a victim of Murphy's Law too many times.

I have just started carrying a chambered round in my pistol. It is a DA/SA with a safety which disconnects the trigger. I feel comfortable with the double layer of protection; if the manual safety comes off of "safe", for any reason, I still have the "safety" of the D/A trigger. I can see that one's level of comfort can depend very much on the specific firearm and its design.

[chabouk]

Being new to the CHL world, I am going through transitions of thought and philosophy very quickly. While I am not unfamiliar with guns, I am not highly practised with them. In getting ready for the CHL, I took some range time with a Glock. I didn't like it for several reasons, and I haven't "bought into" the concept of the trigger being the sole safety - I have been a victim of Murphy's Law too many times.

I'm not a fan of Glocks, but the trigger isn't their sole safety. It's the sole safety while the trigger is being pulled, which is when you want it to go "boom".

It might help you to think of it like this: DAO has been perfectly safe when it comes to revolvers, which have often been carried in pockets with no holster, for about 113 years now. (The S&W Hand Ejector was the first popular DA, appearing in 1896.)

[Familyman1993]

I chamber. Always ready just in case.

[frazzled]

I'm not an epert on anything, but that has never stopped me from offering my opinions and views.

Being new to the CHL world, I am going through transitions of thought and philosophy very quickly. While I am not unfamiliar with guns, I am not highly practised with them. In getting ready for the CHL, I took some range time with a Glock. I didn't like it for several reasons, and I haven't "bought into" the concept of the trigger being the sole safety - I have been a victim of Murphy's Law too many times.

I have just started carrying a chambered round in my pistol. It is a DA/SA with a safety which disconnects the trigger. I feel comfortable with the double layer of protection; if the manual safety comes off of "safe", for any reason, I still have the "safety" of the D/A trigger. I can see that one's level of comfort can depend very much on the specific firearm and its design.

I can understand this viewpoint as well. Its all about what you are comfortable with, and what you are practised doing.

[android]

...I haven't "bought into" the concept of the trigger being the sole safety - I have been a victim of Murphy's Law too many times.

I have just started carrying a chambered round in my pistol. It is a DA/SA with a safety which disconnects the trigger. I feel comfortable with the double layer of protection; if the manual safety comes off of "safe", for any reason, I still have the "safety" of the D/A trigger. I can see that one's level of comfort can depend very much on the specific firearm and its design.

The other aspect you are leaving out is that a DA or DAO pistol with a chambered round should always be in a holster protecting the trigger. Once in the holster, the gun once again becomes an inert and harmless paperweight safe from the grasp of Murphy.

[jbirds1210]

With pratice, it takes .07 seconds more to draw and rack a glock.

Does this include getting your hands back on the gun and making a sighted shot or a blind slap on the trigger at a target three feet away?

I am NOT saying that you are unable to perform this, but I would love to see it.

Jason

[frazzled]

...I haven't "bought into" the concept of the trigger being the sole safety - I have been a victim of Murphy's Law too many times.

I have just started carrying a chambered round in my pistol. It is a DA/SA with a safety which disconnects the trigger. I feel comfortable with the double layer of protection; if the manual safety comes off of "safe", for any reason, I still have the "safety" of the D/A trigger. I can see that one's level of comfort can depend very much on the specific firearm and its design.

The other aspect you are leaving out is that a DA or DAO pistol with a chambered round should always be in a holster protecting the trigger. Once in the holster, the gun once again becomes an inert and harmless paperweight safe from the grasp of Murphy.

I agree although I would not say this removes the pistol completely from the vagaries of Murphy. This would be my preferred method.

I'll be honest I would not trust the Glock type with a round in the chamber (XD somewhat more so due to the additional grip safety although I can think of ways that would be disengaged as well). if the holster fails and the trigger is engaged, that same force is going to engage the safety if its on the trigger itself. I'm just way too paranoid on mechanicals.

[VoiceofReason]

To skiprr
I appreciate your welcome and your thanks. You are the only person to ever have thanked me for my LEO service.

In my original post I stated what feels right for me and that I place safety paramount. I do not believe I have ever criticized anyone for the way they carry. As long as one carries as safely as possible he/she can’t go wrong.

On another subject, does anyone know of any insurance a CHL holder can purchase that would provide legal representation if needed? I hope never to have to display my firearm let alone use it, but I would like to have legal representation if I do, without losing everything I have.

[seamusTX]

... does anyone know of any insurance a CHL holder can purchase that would provide legal representation if needed?

Search this forum for chlpp.com. That will get you a bunch of threads about that company and some others.

I have no opinion on such insurance.

- Jim

[dac1842]

if you carry empty chamber, then you may as well not carry at all, the end result of a combat situation will be the same, your funeral.

[srothstein]

I am not nearly as sure of that end result, DAC1842. There have been too many times where a display of being armed ends the problem. There are also the times I was forced to carry with an empty chamber (8 years as an MP and that was the reg). I never did need the pistol while an MP so my personal experience is non-conclusive, but there are enough documented cases of MP's winning gunfights to make me question this conclusion. Yes, it is different because we carried openly, but we also practiced chambering as part of the draw.

I carry cocked and locked, and I recommend it, but carrying other ways is a personal choice that I cannot condemn as wrong.