Seeking advice on my first black rifle

[Rex B]

Eotech is the Holy Grail of red dot sights for black rifles.
But the Bushnell Holosight is the same thing with a plastic frame instead of aluminum, made by the same company.

[Rex B]

ARRRGHHH...Andy you do realize that you are advocating the much-dreaded AR building addiction? I started the same way and now 13 AR's later look at me!

true. Any any guy who ever built a model kit is susceptible.

[NcongruNt]

Eotech is the Holy Grail of red dot sights for black rifles.
But the Bushnell Holosight is the same thing with a plastic frame instead of aluminum, made by the same company.

What about the ACOG? That's the holy grail there, and priced accordingly.

[MojoTexas]

Too bad I can't add one of these...

http://www.knightarmco.com/m203_12ga.html

The 12-gauge Masterkey shotgun can be mounted under standard rifles as a breaching tool when used with special ammo. It is also mountable to KAC's Standalone Module. The system consists of a Remington 870 shotgun that can be mounted onto a M4 rifle in an under-barrel configuration. The shotgun has a 3 round capacity and should be only operated when attached to a host rifle or the Standalone Module.

[MojoTexas]

One more question...should I get one that is gas operated, or should I pay for the gas-piston system?

For example, see this link: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/61688-55.html

What does the gas-piston do for you, compared to normal gas-operated?

Based on Googling around, it appears that S&W licensed the technology from this company: http://www.adamsarms.net/

[Beiruty]

One more question...should I get one that is gas operated, or should I pay for the gas-piston system?

For example, see this link: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/61688-55.html

What does the gas-piston do for you, compared to normal gas-operated?

Based on Googling around, it appears that S&W licensed the technology from this company: http://www.adamsarms.net/

I got a piston driven SIG 556. Basically a US made AK. You can get a decent AK or any other pIston driven ARs. I recommend HK MR556.

[Mr.ViperBoa]

check out http://www.gunbroker.com/

Just search AR 15, lots of results.

[NcongruNt]

One more question...should I get one that is gas operated, or should I pay for the gas-piston system?

For example, see this link: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/61688-55.html

What does the gas-piston do for you, compared to normal gas-operated?

Based on Googling around, it appears that S&W licensed the technology from this company: http://www.adamsarms.net/

It's a solution to a problem that only existed with improperly prepared batches of military ammo during the Vietnam war. The AR design is very simple and very elegant.

I listened to the hype and wanted to go with a piston design, up until I actually built a gas-impingement AR for myself. I then realized that the piston system is an unnecessary complication that only adds mechanical complexity and more points of failure. If you want a piston-operated rifle, get something that was designed as a piston-operated rifle. I see no point in modifying the AR design with piston systems that solve a non-existent problem.

It's like implementing a striker system in a 1911 design. It was never meant to go on that platform, and you're better off going with a Glock or one of the other multitude of handguns available that do that as part of the native design.

[C-dub]

Too bad I can't add one of these...

http://www.knightarmco.com/m203_12ga.html

The 12-gauge Masterkey shotgun can be mounted under standard rifles as a breaching tool when used with special ammo. It is also mountable to KAC's Standalone Module. The system consists of a Remington 870 shotgun that can be mounted onto a M4 rifle in an under-barrel configuration. The shotgun has a 3 round capacity and should be only operated when attached to a host rifle or the Standalone Module.

That is just too cool!

[74novaman]

Other ar gurus will be along shortly but I don't think there's any reason to get a piston system. You're adding weight and fixing something that frankly isn't broken.

[gigag04]

It's a solution to a problem that only existed with improperly prepared batches of military ammo during the Vietnam war. The AR design is very simple and very elegant.

Other ar gurus will be along shortly but I don't think there's any reason to get a piston system. You're adding weight and fixing something that frankly isn't broken.

All you anti piston guys are funny. Having run a piston gun and a DI gun through days and cases of ammo in training classes, I love the piston. Runs cooler and cleaner. If you look at failures in the AR/M4 platform it is usually from dirt and debris. Mitigating those factors would serve to INCREASE reliability, not decrease it.

For most casual uses DI vs Piston would be personal preference. The difference is further less pronounced when you take select fire out of the equation. That said, my piston gun is my first choice for a working gun. Most people that I have discussed the issue with have never heavily used a piston AR - they just repeat some heavily repeated mantra that they read on ARF or M4C. The piston ARs that are out there were made famous by the top tier, well respected, companies: POF, LWRC, LMT, SCAR, HK, et al. Bushmaster and others soon followed suit.

For the OP's needs, this discussion seems to be a moot point, however, as any respectable piston gun is out of the original budget. I don't recommend building your own AR for the first gun, headspacing can be a pain. I think the M&P (specifically MOE is one of the best out of the box guns for the price).


Oh and to be more conflicting, I prefer the Aimpoint to the Eotech. Battery life is way better, and my eyes just like it better. Can't go wrong either way. The Eotech reticle has a great standoff feature for close in surgical shooting. I run an Aimpoint Comp ML3, but I'm really leaning towards an Aimpoint T-1 Micro. Again - that is a later discussion.

[MojoTexas]

Based on the feedback, I don't think I need a piston AR as my first black rifle. It'd be nice, maybe, but probably just extra expense I wouldn't appreciate at first.

Thanks GigAg for your feedback. I think I'll keep it simple and upgrade in the future if I feel the need. That's the beauty of the AR platform, right? Legos for grownups?

[74novaman]

All you anti piston guys are funny. Having run a piston gun and a DI gun through days and cases of ammo in training classes, I love the piston. Runs cooler and cleaner. If you look at failures in the AR/M4 platform it is usually from dirt and debris. Mitigating those factors would serve to INCREASE reliability, not decrease it..

Well, I did admit to not being an AR guru so everything I know is based off of something I read.

Continuing that tradition, the other reason I've heard cited against a piston system is a slight decrease in accuracy from the fact you have more parts moving around when you fire when you add a piston to an AR. Have you noticed any difference in accuracy between a DI and a piston AR in your experience?

[gigag04]

All you anti piston guys are funny. Having run a piston gun and a DI gun through days and cases of ammo in training classes, I love the piston. Runs cooler and cleaner. If you look at failures in the AR/M4 platform it is usually from dirt and debris. Mitigating those factors would serve to INCREASE reliability, not decrease it..

Well, I did admit to not being an AR guru so everything I know is based off of something I read.

Continuing that tradition, the other reason I've heard cited against a piston system is a slight decrease in accuracy from the fact you have more parts moving around when you fire when you add a piston to an AR. Have you noticed any difference in accuracy between a DI and a piston AR in your experience?

None - there really isn't "more parts" - there is A piston that is activated by the gases from the fired cartridge that cycles the bolt, as opposed to the gases themselves cycling the bolt. It looks like a long spring with a metal core. None of this affects accuracy. The piston resides where the gas tube used to - so it's a direct swap. I hear the "it's more complicated" rhetoric all the time. However, when you strip my rifle down, I find that it is simpler, cleaner, and the bolt makes more sense. I also feel that a piston will run faster than DI, but I have no real basis for that opinion - it's just my hunch.