A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

[dihappy]

Id be interested in his response. However, i also agree that for the State Fair organizers to even ASK for your CHL seems illegal as the law states we are to present CHL only when asked by LEO, and this should not even be a condition to enter a "STATE FAIR" which takes place on tax payer property.

[gemini]

Since I havent seen any successful communication/resolution on this matter, I went ahead and sent an email to my State Representative Dan Flynn (very pro-CHL guy).

First I will start with the posted policy of the State Fair as it reads on their website...

"...a gun? No, with one exception.
A person holding a valid concealed handgun license is permitted to enter onto State Fair property with his/her concealed handgun. Licenses will be examined at the entrance by an authorized security supervisor. Handguns will not be permitted inside the Cotton Bowl, a facility defined under Texas Penal Code 46.035 as "the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place." We want the Fair to be a fun and safe experience."

I am a member of http://www.texasCHLforum.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and am reading some horrible stories that CHL holders are not only required to show their CHL but to also have the personal information on their CHL recorded and if they refuse, they are denied entry. Is something like this legal? I know that by law DPS does not give out CHL holder information and was wondering if private entities are allowed to do so. I do know that the Fair is held on public property and therefore one cannot be denied entry for carrying, but what about the recording of personal information? I understand the need to examine a CHL to verify that they can legally carry... but personal information? If it is legal to require this, is there anyway to find out what is done with this information (where it goes, how is it stored, when is it destroyed)? Is there a way to find out if the people taking the information have complied with Federal law regarding NPPI? There are a few people that have attempted to get this information from the Head of Security, Steve Ledbetter, but he has apparently not been able to provide any kind of explanation. I have only been attending the Fair for a couple of years and have only recently received my CHL but this breech of privacy is enough to keep me from going at any point in the future.

Thank you for your time,

David *********

Thank you Sir. Every little bit helps. Maybe getting our legislators up to speed on this will bring about a minor change in CHL law. Like, making it illegal for any entity, business or individual (other than a FFL in the purchase of a gun) to demand presentation, collect, record, log or create a registry of a individuals CHL information.

[Brazos]

At some point, hopefully soon, this situation will be resolved. But how, and what are some of the possible outcomes? Here are some possibilities. Which choice do you think the State Fair will pick?

1) Purchase numerous 30.06 signs and post all entrances of our Texas State Fair. Big Tex says “Howdy” but not to CHL holders.

2) Allow a CHL holder to carry after presenting CHL to the gate security and then providing personal information in order to enter. The specific information required will be determined by our Texas State Fair and collected by their skilled gate security force.

3) Follow their current written policies found on their website and allow the CHL holder to carry once the CHL has been shown to their gate security personnel.

4) Change their current policy and allow a CHL holder to carry once the CHL holder has presented their card to a LEO or authorized magistrate.

5) Not post 30.06 signs but deny entry to all CHL holders. As a courtesy, our Texas State Fair will offer a secure lock box at each gate for you to store your weapon as you enjoy the fair.

6) In the future, ANYONE who tries to enter our Texas State Fair with a gun will be thrown to the ground, handcuffed and detained by the authorized gate security.

Forget legal/illegal, what outcome do YOU predict?

[C-dub]

Since my initial responses from two Dallas city council members' offices things have gone up a notch. From council member Jasso's office, after I presented current statutes in yesterday's e-mail, I was asked if I personally had an incident and that she had forwarded my concerns to the city's attorney for review. I explained my own minor incident, but that there was a wide range of incidents from other CHL holders that included denying entry if personal information was not allowed to be documented.

Another reply from council member Davis' office focused on the fair grounds being leased by a private company. The following was my response to her office earlier this afternoon.

Respectfully, just because the land is being leased by a private company does not mean that it is not still owned by the City of Dallas and still required to abide by laws, which are quite clear on this matter. I understand that with regards to many things this might be different, but with regards to Concealed Handgun Licensees I think this is a unique set of circumstances for which a different section of the law may be applicable. Also, according to the Fair Park website, it says that licenses will be examined before entry is allowed. If the CHL were only being reviewed there would not be any problems. The park employees are attempting to document this information.

About an hour later, while I was out running errands, I received a phone call from a Dallas LEO. I was more than just a little surprised, but recovered well and we had a good conversation. Since I was out and about I didn't have anything to write on, so this is all from memory. The following is Officer Cotner's reply to me and other council members that he followed up on their request to investigate.

I contacted Mr ***** by telephone this afternoon. He and I had an opportunity to discuss his concerns and those of other CHL members he speaks with. The discussion was enlightening for both parties and ended with positive resolution.

Mr ***** was assured that managerial members of the State Fair, Platinum Security (private security vendor hired by the State Fair) and the Dallas Police Department were on-site to resolve any matter concerning to CHL holders and on-going efforts were being taken by Platinum Security to improve their service in this regard.

I shared the State Fair Police Office telephone number (214-243-2439)to Mr ***** for his or other CHL member’s further assistance in this matter.

I added the phone number from my caller ID.

He informed me that I have surely stirred things up amongst the city council with my/our questions and concerns and that Platinum Security has initiated an internal review as a result. He said that he speaks often with Mr. Mata and that the issue of CHL holders is at the top of their list of things to discuss lately. I explained that there doesn't seem to be any continuity from gate to gate or day to day. Some require the information, while some are barely concerned at all. And we are most disturbed by the collection of personal information and the possible dissemination of it to unauthorized individuals.

Out of respect for Gemini, I will not initiate any further contact with Fair Park, Dallas City Council Members, or Platinum Security until further notice from him. Based on my conversation with Officer Cotner I also don't believe there will be much more e-mail contact from any of the council members' offices. So, now, we just wait and see.

[C-dub]

At some point, hopefully soon, this situation will be resolved. But how, and what are some of the possible outcomes? Here are some possibilities. Which choice do you think the State Fair will pick?

1) Purchase numerous 30.06 signs and post all entrances of our Texas State Fair. Big Tex says “Howdy” but not to CHL holders.
Based on my conversation with the Dallas LEO, I think this is extremely remote.

2) Allow a CHL holder to carry after presenting CHL to the gate security and then providing personal information in order to enter. The specific information required will be determined by our Texas State Fair and collected by their skilled gate security force.
This, I think could happen, but I'm optimistic that they will decide against this due to our resistance.

3) Follow their current written policies found on their website and allow the CHL holder to carry once the CHL has been shown to their gate security personnel.
Very likely IMHO.

4) Change their current policy and allow a CHL holder to carry once the CHL holder has presented their card to a LEO or authorized magistrate.
Also, very likely IMHO.

5) Not post 30.06 signs but deny entry to all CHL holders. As a courtesy, our Texas State Fair will offer a secure lock box at each gate for you to store your weapon as you enjoy the fair.
I don't see them shelling out the funds for this.

6) In the future, ANYONE who tries to enter our Texas State Fair with a gun will be thrown to the ground, handcuffed and detained by the authorized gate security.
Well ...

Forget legal/illegal, what outcome do YOU predict?

My thoughts in red.

[Brazos]

Gemini- your prediction?

[employee3]

This is my first post after lurking for a while...

I'm going to the fair today. carrying. legally.

Tyranny must stop somewhere. My hope is that they follow the standard LEO check and be done, otherwise I'll bail. But I will make my concerns heard for sure, should they ask to write down ANY information.

I'll report back hopefully later than sooner.

[Brazos]

This is my first post after lurking for a while...

I'm going to the fair today. carrying. legally.

Tyranny must stop somewhere. My hope is that they follow the standard LEO check and be done, otherwise I'll bail. But I will make my concerns heard for sure, should they ask to write down ANY information.

I'll report back hopefully later than sooner.

Agree 100%. We are attending the fair tonight and I will ONLY show my CHL to a LEO. If the fair requires ANYTHING other than that, my family and I will NEVER attend the fair again. And I mean it. I am seventh generation Texan, attended the fair every year of my life, attended fair days as a kid but it may be my last trip. May buy a nice, new pistol with the money saved!

If they refuse entrance, I will never attend again and then become the worst boil imaginable on the State Fair's backside.

Thank you Gemini for posting your experience. This is just the type of situation we CANNOT let happen or ignore.

[gemini]

Gemini- your prediction?

At some point, hopefully soon, this situation will be resolved. But how, and what are some of the possible outcomes? Here are some possibilities. Which choice do you think the State Fair will pick?

1) Purchase numerous 30.06 signs and post all entrances of our Texas State Fair. Big Tex says “Howdy” but not to CHL holders.

2) Allow a CHL holder to carry after presenting CHL to the gate security and then providing personal information in order to enter. The specific information required will be determined by our Texas State Fair and collected by their skilled gate security force.

3) Follow their current written policies found on their website and allow the CHL holder to carry once the CHL has been shown to their gate security personnel.

4) Change their current policy and allow a CHL holder to carry once the CHL holder has presented their card to a LEO or authorized magistrate.

5) Not post 30.06 signs but deny entry to all CHL holders. As a courtesy, our Texas State Fair will offer a secure lock box at each gate for you to store your weapon as you enjoy the fair.

6) In the future, ANYONE who tries to enter our Texas State Fair with a gun will be thrown to the ground, handcuffed and detained by the authorized gate security.

Forget legal/illegal, what outcome do YOU predict?

Well, if I had to pick from the above list:
I'm good with item #4.
Item #1 & 2 will cause me to be in a NEVER ending battle that could turn ugly or break me financially.
Item #3, I could live with, provided the security personnel were descret, professional and well trained.
Item #5, not practicle for the Fair. However, I might like to see secure storage at our court houses for visitors, jury and officers that tend to leave their guns in the court house bathrooms unattended (if you're new to this forum, search for the gun in bathroom thread). I hate trying to secure my weapon in my truck when called up for jury duty.
Item #6, sounds good to me if you're a Blood, Crypt or gangbanger. Not if you're a lawfully carrying CHL holder.

If you guys go to the Fair today or tonight. Have fun! The only thing I ask is, IF there is a problem, please, please, keep the emotions in check. Post your experience here and other sites. Then let's go after the big dogs.

[joe817]

Then let's go after the big dogs.

Absolutely! Well put Gemini! I couldn't agree more.

[ricor]

whatever became of this?

[winkydo]

whatever became of this?

Well Gemini who has been working through the ranks at the Fair Council and the Security services came up with this...

I'm glad some others are reporting they are being allowed in without the recording of information too. I'm also surprised you actually got responses from anyone at city hall. I got another surprise today... the DPS attorney called to explain their position. That was an interesting conversation. Until my attoney has had a chance to speak with the legal council representing the Fair, I should refrain from posting the content of todays communications.

And C-dub has been working through the Dallas City Council and came up with this...

Out of respect for Gemini, I will not initiate any further contact with Fair Park, Dallas City Council Members, or Platinum Security until further notice from him. Based on my conversation with Officer Cotner I also don't believe there will be much more e-mail contact from any of the council members' offices. So, now, we just wait and see.

The best thing to do, if you have questions, concerns, or run into a problem is contact the 'State Fair Police Office'...

I shared the State Fair Police Office telephone number (214-243-2439)to Mr ***** for his or other CHL member’s further assistance in this matter.

I think that gemini summed it up best here...

If you guys go to the Fair today or tonight. Have fun! The only thing I ask is, IF there is a problem, please, please, keep the emotions in check. Post your experience here and other sites. Then let's go after the big dogs.

Dont Tread on Me.

I have gone to the Fair for many years. Since I got my CHL, I have not had any problems showing it to the wander, presenting it to the uniformed LEO, and walking on in after buying my ticket. I hope that this was someone's oversight to be a little more strict on the rules and that this can be clarified and sorted out. Always keep your witts about you, never loose your temper, and remember that we're all in this together and the guys you're talking to at the gate, are just trying to do their job as they have been told.

[Dragonfighter]

Well, I've had it. I am posting the (edited) body of a certified letter going to Greg Abbott's office and an email I sent to the PR office after trying to get someone, anyone to tell me what they are doing with the information.

Letter:

October 8, 2009

To: Greg Abbott
Office of the Attorney General
PO Box 12548
Austin, TX 78711-2548

Fr: <SNIP>

Re: Collection of personal and sensitive information by State Fair of Texas employees.

Mr. Abbott,

I have had to contact your office before concerning credit practices and identity theft and have always found you and your staff responsive, courteous and committed to the protection of Texas' citizens. I have also learned that identity theft is one area in which you are extremely passionate about.
I hold a Concealed Carry Permit issued by the Department of Public Safety and my family and I typically make at least three trips to the State Fair of Texas located on the Fair Park property owned by the city of Dallas' Parks and Recreation Department. Carry of concealed weapons has been permitted there since Penal Code Section 30.06 (Criminal Trespass by a License Holder) has included language reading in part, “It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.”
Initially, as a CHL holder, I was singled out and even harassed by gate personnel and security supervisors. They would collect personally identifiable information on a form before permitting entry and often vocalized their disdain for licensed carry of weapons for self defense. I had filed a formal complaint with the fair's director and had contacted my attorney. The next year however the policy had changed and all that was “required” was display of the license to the wand handler and they would either wave you on by or escort you to the gate's posted officer to verify the license. Though the Government Code clearly states that only a magistrate or peace officer can demand display of the license if you are armed (Sec. 411.205); streamlining the entry process motivated me to allow the personnel to view the license.
This year, myself and several other licensees that I am acquainted with have been subjected to being taken aside, questioned about our licenses and have had detailed information recorded on yellow steno pads by minimally trained gate personnel. This information includes name, address, DOB, license number and phone number. If this information is refused, entry will be denied.
Attempts by me to gain information about the collection, storage and securing of this information has been met with evasiveness and discourteous by both the director's office and the security company. The gate personnel have no idea what happens to the information they record.
I am sure you are aware that CHL bearers have to maintain exemplary standards of personal conduct. As one who has spent their entire adult life in public service, first as a soldier and then as a firefighter, I find this harassment invasive and humiliating. What is more important and the reason I am contacting your office is that personal and confidential information is being “extorted” in order to prevent public embarrassment of a licensee and/or their family. It is being demanded beyond any possible legal authority and those that are gathering this information refuse to account for its use and storage. The potential for dissemination to those that would pursue and harass CHL holders as well as the ease of access by identity thieves is overwhelming.
Mr. Abbott, it is my prayer that your office can look into this matter and:

1)Compel the director of the State Fair of Texas, the security contractor and/or the City of Dallas to account for every piece of identifiable information collected on CHL holders and insure its secure destruction.
2)Take action that will stop the public harassment and humiliation of law abiding citizens simply because they posses a CHL and wish to access public property.
Thank you so much for your kind attention to this matter. You may contact me via my mailing address, my home phone number...<SNIP>

Sincerely,
CC:
<SNIP>, Attorney
Mary Suhm, City Manager, City of Dallas
Director's Office, The State Fair of Texas

Email:

Please note that as a holder of a concealed handgun license, I have had to maintain exemplary standards of personal conduct. Also I have served my entire adult life as a soldier or a fire and rescue officer. The singling out of CHL holders for the removal to the side of the line and the gathering of personal and identifiable information is both an insult to one who is held to a higher standard of legal responsibility and illegal.

The State of Texas' Government Code Section Sec. 411.192 makes it clear that the Department of Public Safety (the state agency responsible for the issuance of CHLs and enforcement of the regulations pertaining to the carrying of concealed weapons) is required to maintain absolute confidentiality of records with few exceptions.

Also, it is illegal for access by a CHL holder to be denied to any facility owned or leased by a government entity, again with few and specific exceptions (Penal Code 30.06). There is no exception made in the statutes excepting a so-called "private" company that is utilizing facilities that are owned by a government entity. The State Fair Park, its buildings and facities are owned by the Parks and Recreation Department of the City of Dallas.

It is illegal for any local government (or those operating under the auspices of a local government) to impose regulations or codes that supersede those of the State of Texas.

The only persons with legal authority to demand display of the CHL and identification is a peace officer or magistrate and that is only when the bearer has the weapon on or about their person (Government Code Sec. 411.205). However, in the interest of streamlining entry and to prevent possible panic by gate personnel, I personally have no problem displaying my CHL and if the need is felt, being escorted to a police officer for verification. This is my concession and in no way able to be legally required by the operators of the State Fair.

Your personnel and by association the security contractors have adopted a policy of removing anyone from the line that presents a CHL and subjecting them to scrutiny by "supervisors" and forcing the choice of surrendering personally identifiable and confidential information to be recorded or denial of entry in violation of state law. Further, any attempts by me and other CHL holders to account for the storage, security and use of this sensitive information has been met with evasion and discourteous response on by those in the director's office and Platinum security.

Not only have you partaken in the illegal extraction of personal information, but your organization refuses to make any assurances that the information is secure and or destroyed after its undefined use. Not only have you been exposed to criminal liability but you have exposed your organization and the City of Dallas to massive civil liability should any of this information be disseminated without express permission of the CHL holder(s) or its misuse results in any incident of identity theft.


A certified letter has been sent to the Greg Abbott, Texas Attorney General as well as copies of that letter and this email being sent to my attorney and the City Manager's office. A follow-up letter will be forthcoming to the director's office as well.

<Signature>

CC:
<SNIP>, Attorney
Mary Suhm, City Manager - Dallas, Texas

Other letters are going out tomorrow.

[employee3]

Update : wander was shown chl, escorted to LEO and passed through. Maybe we've made the impact?

[gemini]

Well, I've had it. I am posting the (edited) body of a certified letter going to Greg Abbott's office and an email I sent to the PR office after trying to get someone, anyone to tell me what they are doing with the information.

Letter:

October 8, 2009

To: Greg Abbott
Office of the Attorney General
PO Box 12548
Austin, TX 78711-2548

Fr: <SNIP>

Re: Collection of personal and sensitive information by State Fair of Texas employees.

Mr. Abbott,

I have had to contact your office before concerning credit practices and identity theft and have always found you and your staff responsive, courteous and committed to the protection of Texas' citizens. I have also learned that identity theft is one area in which you are extremely passionate about.
I hold a Concealed Carry Permit issued by the Department of Public Safety and my family and I typically make at least three trips to the State Fair of Texas located on the Fair Park property owned by the city of Dallas' Parks and Recreation Department. Carry of concealed weapons has been permitted there since Penal Code Section 30.06 (Criminal Trespass by a License Holder) has included language reading in part, “It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.”
Initially, as a CHL holder, I was singled out and even harassed by gate personnel and security supervisors. They would collect personally identifiable information on a form before permitting entry and often vocalized their disdain for licensed carry of weapons for self defense. I had filed a formal complaint with the fair's director and had contacted my attorney. The next year however the policy had changed and all that was “required” was display of the license to the wand handler and they would either wave you on by or escort you to the gate's posted officer to verify the license. Though the Government Code clearly states that only a magistrate or peace officer can demand display of the license if you are armed (Sec. 411.205); streamlining the entry process motivated me to allow the personnel to view the license.
This year, myself and several other licensees that I am acquainted with have been subjected to being taken aside, questioned about our licenses and have had detailed information recorded on yellow steno pads by minimally trained gate personnel. This information includes name, address, DOB, license number and phone number. If this information is refused, entry will be denied.
Attempts by me to gain information about the collection, storage and securing of this information has been met with evasiveness and discourteous by both the director's office and the security company. The gate personnel have no idea what happens to the information they record.
I am sure you are aware that CHL bearers have to maintain exemplary standards of personal conduct. As one who has spent their entire adult life in public service, first as a soldier and then as a firefighter, I find this harassment invasive and humiliating. What is more important and the reason I am contacting your office is that personal and confidential information is being “extorted” in order to prevent public embarrassment of a licensee and/or their family. It is being demanded beyond any possible legal authority and those that are gathering this information refuse to account for its use and storage. The potential for dissemination to those that would pursue and harass CHL holders as well as the ease of access by identity thieves is overwhelming.
Mr. Abbott, it is my prayer that your office can look into this matter and:

1)Compel the director of the State Fair of Texas, the security contractor and/or the City of Dallas to account for every piece of identifiable information collected on CHL holders and insure its secure destruction.
2)Take action that will stop the public harassment and humiliation of law abiding citizens simply because they posses a CHL and wish to access public property.
Thank you so much for your kind attention to this matter. You may contact me via my mailing address, my home phone number...<SNIP>

Sincerely,
CC:
<SNIP>, Attorney
Mary Suhm, City Manager, City of Dallas
Director's Office, The State Fair of Texas

Email:

Please note that as a holder of a concealed handgun license, I have had to maintain exemplary standards of personal conduct. Also I have served my entire adult life as a soldier or a fire and rescue officer. The singling out of CHL holders for the removal to the side of the line and the gathering of personal and identifiable information is both an insult to one who is held to a higher standard of legal responsibility and illegal.

The State of Texas' Government Code Section Sec. 411.192 makes it clear that the Department of Public Safety (the state agency responsible for the issuance of CHLs and enforcement of the regulations pertaining to the carrying of concealed weapons) is required to maintain absolute confidentiality of records with few exceptions.

Also, it is illegal for access by a CHL holder to be denied to any facility owned or leased by a government entity, again with few and specific exceptions (Penal Code 30.06). There is no exception made in the statutes excepting a so-called "private" company that is utilizing facilities that are owned by a government entity. The State Fair Park, its buildings and facities are owned by the Parks and Recreation Department of the City of Dallas.

It is illegal for any local government (or those operating under the auspices of a local government) to impose regulations or codes that supersede those of the State of Texas.

The only persons with legal authority to demand display of the CHL and identification is a peace officer or magistrate and that is only when the bearer has the weapon on or about their person (Government Code Sec. 411.205). However, in the interest of streamlining entry and to prevent possible panic by gate personnel, I personally have no problem displaying my CHL and if the need is felt, being escorted to a police officer for verification. This is my concession and in no way able to be legally required by the operators of the State Fair.

Your personnel and by association the security contractors have adopted a policy of removing anyone from the line that presents a CHL and subjecting them to scrutiny by "supervisors" and forcing the choice of surrendering personally identifiable and confidential information to be recorded or denial of entry in violation of state law. Further, any attempts by me and other CHL holders to account for the storage, security and use of this sensitive information has been met with evasion and discourteous response on by those in the director's office and Platinum security.

Not only have you partaken in the illegal extraction of personal information, but your organization refuses to make any assurances that the information is secure and or destroyed after its undefined use. Not only have you been exposed to criminal liability but you have exposed your organization and the City of Dallas to massive civil liability should any of this information be disseminated without express permission of the CHL holder(s) or its misuse results in any incident of identity theft.


A certified letter has been sent to the Greg Abbott, Texas Attorney General as well as copies of that letter and this email being sent to my attorney and the City Manager's office. A follow-up letter will be forthcoming to the director's office as well.

<Signature>

CC:
<SNIP>, Attorney
Mary Suhm, City Manager - Dallas, Texas

Other letters are going out tomorrow.

I couldn't agree with you more. A very direct and well written letter. The attorneys that met today were DPS CHL attorney, City of Dallas attorney and attorney for the State Fair. They did come to a decision on what is required for entry into the Fair grounds. However, I do not have all the specifics at this point. I should have the specifics by tomorrow and will post them. I am very interested in the response of Greg Abbott. Believe me when I say, I understand completely your frustration in trying to get a straight answer from anyone associated with the Fair. Be it management, security, gate personnel, city council etc.