Furious! Elderly FW woman attacked at WM

[Jumping Frog]

Just because we have a gun doesn't mean that its use is required. If I did pull my gun, shooting would not be my first option. I would only fire the gun in the event I couldn't stop the assault or they turned on me. My primary goal would be to stop the assault of the old lady and the purse would be secondary.

Yea, there definitely seems to be two camps on this:
1) Pull -> Fire
2) Pull -> Evaluate -> Fire

... I should say that when drawing, there appears to be two camps..

Please note that when I stated that Texas law justifies walking up and shooting someone in the act of committing robbery, I am not stating that is necessarily the best course of action or the only course of action.

I am simply observing that, before one even draws your handgun, it is preferable to know what level of force is justified and what level of force is presumed justified. That gives you firmly grounded legal choices. One simply must be well-grounded in exactly what the statutes do and do not say.

I see many comments in this thread where is at least appears that various authors are not fully aware of where the legal lines are drawn and what standards must be met to justify the use of deadly force. A CHL is placing their freedom at risk if they are walking around carrying a handgun and have a fuzzy knowledge of Texas Penal Code Chapter 9.

Back to your observation, if these are my three choices:

0) Be a good witness.
1) Pull -> Fire
2) Pull -> Evaluate -> Fire

Then, should a person choose options 1 or 2, they better know before drawing where they stand.

[TomsTXCHL]

I saw no evidence that the woman's life was in danger in the video.

But a physical attack upon a [truly] elderly person could easily result in death. This is the reason for the outrage in the first place i.e. not about a purse-snatching in some parking lot--that happens every day!

As I think about the guy in the foreground "backing away" I do probably need to cut him some slack, because if it were me, from that distance/angle I'd probably not have recognized immediately that an elderly woman was under attack, because, no, I would not likely want to get involved in a "simple" purse-snatch (unless of course it was my wife's!).

[Jumping Frog]

I saw no evidence that the woman's life was in danger in the video.

But a physical attack upon a [truly] elderly person could easily result in death..

This is the point I am making in the previous post. Whether or not her "life was in danger" has nothing to do with the legal standard in this situation. If someone chooses to use deadly force in defense of a third person, one does not need to stand there and debate whether her life is in danger, or is she old enough that she is in greater danger, or is grandma fighting back pretty well, or does the other party seem like they are going to escalate.

None of that debate is necessary. That fact that it is a robbery in and of itself is sufficient justification.

Since it is clearly justified, now one can choose to not intervene, draw and order them to stop, or draw and shoot them down. All three choices are legally justified once one determines a robbery is in progress.

The same is true for all six enumerated crimes.

[gringo pistolero]

After everything I had to do to get my CHL, I'm not going to risk it for some stranger who couldn't be bothered to get their own.

Maybe they're a convicted felon and aren't eligible to get a CHL.

[CoolBreeze]

It is a world we created with sue happy people and only the letter of the law left. People are afraid to get involved. They are afraid they may get sued or worse prosecuted by the police. As was stated we are now prosecuted by social media. We used to take into account what peoples intentions were not just their actions. I feel sorry for that woman.

I want to clarify: I was not abdicating someone should have pulled a firearm or used deadly force. There is nothing saying anyone had one that was present. My point was no one did anything. It may be that this happened so fast no one knew what was really happening. There have been several video's in recent time where multiple people have not only stood by and watched an actual crime committed where they took no action to stop it. I do not expect people to get involved personally but they didn't bother to yell, call the police or anything else constructive besides taking out their cell phone and filming it. Not for evidence but to put it on YouTube. Just sad.

[TomsTXCHL]

Every CHL should have the six enumerated crimes memorized: aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

Can you help us out re the use of the word "aggravated" above please. I don't understand the difference(s).

Also, what you have told us here is that if e.g. we were in a restaurant where an armed robbery is taking place, and which has potential to escalate as some of these incidents involved robbing of all PATRONS as well as the "cash register", that if I could draw and get a bead on the BG w/gun I need only shoot to kill. No warning needed. Headshot.

If yes I do like that a lot better than announcing my presence "DROP YOUR WEAPON!" which in all likelihood results in the BG changing position and giving me now a moving target.

[gringo pistolero]

Can you help us out re the use of the word "aggravated" above please. I don't understand the difference(s).

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.20.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.22.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.29.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jumping Frog]

Also, what you have told us here is that if e.g. we were in a restaurant where an armed robbery is taking place, and which has potential to escalate as some of these incidents involved robbing of all PATRONS as well as the "cash register", that if I could draw and get a bead on the BG w/gun I need only shoot to kill. No warning needed. Headshot.

Using deadly force is presumed reasonable in response to aggravated robbery.

If yes I do like that a lot better than announcing my presence "DROP YOUR WEAPON!" which in all likelihood results in the BG changing position and giving me now a moving target.

If use of deadly force is justified, we do not have a duty to announce our presence, give warnings, take warning shots, or try to arrest. We are not the Police.

We do have the right to use deadly force as specified in Texas Penal Code Chapter 9. Knowing and understanding exactly what these statutes say can make the difference between living in your own home or living in the gray bar hotel. Every CHL should study them. One should not simply be told about them in a 4 hour class and believe they are good to go. I re-read them at least once a month.

[TomsTXCHL]

Thanks a lot for all the help! It is appreciated!

[RoyGBiv]

If use of deadly force is justified, we do not have a duty to announce our presence, give warnings, take warning shots, or try to arrest. We are not the Police.

That sort of stuff makes for good TV, but I'd bet heavily that in the real world it leads to a decrease in survival rates for the good guys.

If you carry a gun, MINDSET is very important. Maybe THE most important thing after training. Maybe even more important. Fix this in your head..... If you are in a position where you need to need to draw your weapon, it's because the person you plan to point it at is in a position to kill you or seriously harm you. Whatever "moral code" or TV training you feel bound by to start shouting them down from whatever act of aggression they are committing can give them the time they need to kill you.

[n5wd]

Just an update to the original OP's story... FWPD announced this evening that they have suspects in custody at this time, a 17 YOA male, and a 15 YOA female.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/07/05/teen ... t-robbery/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TexasGal]

15 years old and you are beating old ladies up for their purses. Sad and unsettling. Where does a young person go from there? I have little hope a trip though juvi will turn this girl into a law abiding citizen. Local news story reported the victim is thinking about getting a CHL.

[jmra]

Local news story reported the victim is thinking about getting a CHL.

Let's hope she doesn't decide to purse carry...

[Pokie]

Local news story reported the victim is thinking about getting a CHL.

Let's hope she doesn't decide to purse carry...

[9mmboy]

Sad situation. We have many cowards walking the streets of America doing what they do best. Absolutely nothing. It's shameful that cowards outnumber real men. These cowards are just as bad as the criminal in our Society. Yes. Just as bad and maybe worse. Heartless, mindless, soulless, cowardly beings walking among us pretending to be human.

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Why cowards???? Some people just mind their own business and dont want to get involved because they have families at home that they would like to get to. Now if anybody decides to act, their chances of getting back home just dropped. Think of all the legal trouble you can get into. Im no coward, but I have kids to live for.