Houston Zoo Reinstalls No Guns Signs

[Txtension]

Based on this I'm guessing not. It sounds like he stayed at the zoo, openly carrying, and zoo security did nothing further. If the zoo officials had called the police, and this guy had been given a citation, then at least we would have had an opportunity for a judge to rule on the definition of "educational institution" in the law. Would a judge really want to make a precedent setting ruling in a hearing over a Class C misdemeanor? If so, that seems like a fairly low risk way to get a test case before a judge.

As I understand, should the law come down against me I'd be facing felony charges for carrying in an educational facility. I read that they were trying to claim educational status in various newspapers, but I thought that was something that was still on their drawing board and not an active means to bar LTCarriers. So I entered the zoo with the knowledge that 30.07 and .06 wouldn't apply, but I'd rather not rock the boat in felony waters.

[locke_n_load]

So has the AG done anything yet?

Have not heard of any rulings on any 30.06 signs by the AG. Very disappointing. Been 4 months since complaints went in and not a word.

[dhoobler]

Yes, the AG office is not in a rush. The gristmill of justice always turns slow, but it does grind exceedingly fine. At $10,000/Day in fines they will be broke if they levy them retroactively.

There is a clear record that the administrators of the zoo have been made aware of the violation, so there is no reason why that clock would not be ticking right now. If they are worried about the fine, it would be much smarter to take the signs down pending a clarification from a judge on whether they are an educational institution.

Actually, if the zoo is an educational institution, then they don't need to post signs in the first place. Posting signs tells me that they believe they are not in fact an educational institution.

The clock does not start for 15 days after the AG tells them to take down the signs.

[dhoobler]

So has the AG done anything yet?

Have not heard of any rulings on any 30.06 signs by the AG. Very disappointing. Been 4 months since complaints went in and not a word.

I filed a complaint against the city of Pasadena over gun shows at the convention center on October 5. I asked before New Year as to the status. I received a reply last Friday that my case went to the lawyers on October 30. I expect to have an answer this month.

I hope that once there is one or more precedent, future cases will move faster.

[flintknapper]

Mojo wrote:

If this happened, what would have been unlawful about carrying in condition 1?

Nothing of course, but as sure as we are posting here...someone, somewhere is going to claim Disorderly Conduct.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.42.htm

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

Wouldn't take but one Officer to make an errant decision about (calculated to alarm) and some poor chap gets to 'take the ride'.

It likely would not hold up in court and I know of nothing in the law that speaks to the 'readiness' of a weapon (in terms of carry), but remember, it LOOKS SCARY to some folks.

[dhoobler]

Mojo wrote:

If this happened, what would have been unlawful about carrying in condition 1?

Nothing of course, but as sure as we are posting here...someone, somewhere is going to claim Disorderly Conduct.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.42.htm

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

Wouldn't take but one Officer to make an errant decision about (calculated to alarm) and some poor chap gets to 'take the ride'.

It likely would not hold up in court and I know of nothing in the law that speaks to the 'readiness' of a weapon (in terms of carry), but remember, it LOOKS SCARY to some folks.

The issue of disorderly conduct as it relates to open carry was addressed by Harris county DA, Devon Anderson, at the Houston town hall meeting about open carry. [pre-paid legal] attorney Edwin Walker (who got the Houston zoo signs taken down the first time) asked the question in the context of how disorderly conduct had been applied to openly carrying long Guns.

Anderson replied that disorderly conduct charges would not be brought against some openly carrying a handgun according to law.

Bear in mind that this is good for Harris County, where the Houston zoo is located.

[locke_n_load]

So has the AG done anything yet?

Have not heard of any rulings on any 30.06 signs by the AG. Very disappointing. Been 4 months since complaints went in and not a word.

I filed a complaint against the city of Pasadena over gun shows at the convention center on October 5. I asked before New Year as to the status. I received a reply last Friday that my case went to the lawyers on October 30. I expect to have an answer this month.

I hope that once there is one or more precedent, future cases will move faster.

Thanks and agreed.

[PUCKER]

He assured me he was well aware of the law. He also noted that my method of carry was not in compliance with the law and that it was illegal to carry in condition 1 (pretty good eyes to mention that detail). I told him that was not true and asked him for the statute that said otherwise. He said he could even look it up for me, and made an insulting remark that I should have paid attention in chl class. I asked him politely if he could retrieve the statute for me, and I offered to wait, or even come back after we finished viewing the zoo. So he must have realized I called his bluff on that one and he told me to look it up on my own time.

Was your visit with this guy?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-pope-93863016

Maybe he needs some enlightenment on the law...just saying.

[sugar land dave]

"Educational institution" is not defined in Texas statues. There is something close and it does not help the zoo. I've already written a bench brief on this subject. This is going to cost the Houston Zoo a lot of money.

Chas.

If I am understanding correctly, section 46.03 of the penal code, which the zoo seems to be relying on, includes section 61.003 of the Texas Education Code for its definitions of educational facility. I do not seem to find the zoo on the list.

Sec. 61.003. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

(1) "Board" means the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board.

(2) "Public junior college" means any junior college certified by the board in accordance with Section 61.063 of this chapter.

(3) "General academic teaching institution" means The University of Texas at Austin; The University of Texas at El Paso; The University of Texas of the Permian Basin; The University of Texas at Dallas; The University of Texas at San Antonio; Texas A&M University, Main University; The University of Texas at Arlington; Tarleton State University; Prairie View A&M University; Texas Maritime Academy; Texas Tech University; University of North Texas; Lamar University; Lamar State College--Orange; Lamar State College--Port Arthur; Texas A&M University--Kingsville; Texas A&M University--Corpus Christi; Texas Woman's University; Texas Southern University; Midwestern State University; University of Houston; University of Texas--Pan American; The University of Texas at Brownsville; Texas A&M University--Commerce; Sam Houston State University; Texas State University; West Texas A&M University; Stephen F. Austin State University; Sul Ross State University; Angelo State University; The University of Texas at Tyler; and any other college, university, or institution so classified as provided in this chapter or created and so classified, expressly or impliedly, by law.

(4) "Public senior college or university" means a general academic teaching institution as defined above.

(5) "Medical and dental unit" means The Texas A&M University System Health Science Center and its component institutions, agencies, and programs; the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center; the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center at El Paso; The University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston; The University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center; The University of Texas Medical School at San Antonio; The University of Texas Dental Branch at Houston; The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center; The University of Texas Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences at Houston; The University of Texas Dental School at San Antonio; The University of Texas Medical School at Houston; The University of Texas Health Science Center--South Texas and its component institutions, if established under Subchapter N, Chapter 74; the nursing institutions of The Texas A&M University System and The University of Texas System; and The University of Texas School of Public Health at Houston; and such other medical or dental schools as may be established by statute or as provided in this chapter.

(6) "Other agency of higher education" means The University of Texas System, System Administration; Texas Western University Museum; Texas A&M University System, Administrative and General Offices; Texas Agricultural Experiment Station; Texas Agricultural Extension Service; Rodent and Predatory Animal Control Service (a part of the Texas Agricultural Extension Service); Texas Engineering Experiment Station (including the Texas Transportation Institute); Texas Engineering Extension Service; Texas Forest Service; Texas Tech University Museum; Texas State University System, System Administration; Sam Houston Memorial Museum; Panhandle-Plains Historical Museum; Cotton Research Committee of Texas; Water Resources Institute of Texas; Texas Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Laboratory; and any other unit, division, institution, or agency which shall be so designated by statute or which may be established to operate as a component part of any public senior college or university, or which may be so classified as provided in this chapter.

(7) "Public technical institute" means the Lamar Institute of Technology or the Texas State Technical College System.

(8) "Institution of higher education" means any public technical institute, public junior college, public senior college or university, medical or dental unit, public state college, or other agency of higher education as defined in this section.

(9) "Governing board" means the body charged with policy direction of any public technical institute, public junior college, public senior college or university, medical or dental unit, or other agency of higher education, including but not limited to boards of directors, boards of regents, boards of trustees, and independent school district boards insofar as they are charged with policy direction of a public junior college.

(10) "University system" means the association of one or more public senior colleges or universities, medical or dental units, or other agencies of higher education under the policy direction of a single governing board.

(11) "Degree program" means any grouping of subject matter courses which, when satisfactorily completed by a student, will entitle him to a degree from a public senior college or university or a medical or dental unit.

(12) "Certificate program" means a grouping of subject-matter courses which, when satisfactorily completed by a student, will entitle him to a certificate, associate degree from a technical institute or junior college, or documentary evidence, other than a degree, of completion of a course of study at the postsecondary level.

(13) "Recognized accrediting agency" means the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools and any other association or organization so designated by the board.

(14) "Educational and general buildings and facilities" means buildings and facilities essential to or commonly associated with teaching, research, or the preservation of knowledge, including the proportional share used for those activities in any building or facility used jointly with auxiliary enterprises. Excluded are auxiliary enterprise buildings and facilities, including but not limited to dormitories, cafeterias, student union buildings, stadiums, and alumni centers, used solely for those purposes.

(15) "Private or independent institution of higher education" includes only a private or independent college or university that is:

(A) organized under the Texas Non-Profit Corporation Act (Article 1396-1.01 et seq., Vernon's Texas Civil Statutes);

(B) exempt from taxation under Article VIII, Section 2, of the Texas Constitution and Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (26 U.S.C. Section 501); and

(C) accredited by:

(i) the Commission on Colleges of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools;

(ii) the Liaison Committee on Medical Education; or

(iii) the American Bar Association.

(16) "Public state college" means Lamar State College--Orange, Lamar State College--Port Arthur, or the Lamar Institute of Technology.

[srothstein]

If I am understanding correctly, section 46.03 of the penal code, which the zoo seems to be relying on, includes section 61.003 of the Texas Education Code for its definitions of educational facility. I do not seem to find the zoo on the list.

Be careful. You can make an argument that the PC would rely on the Education Code for all of the education differences, but it does not explicitly do so. It only refers to that section for the definition of colleges.

[puma guy]

If I am understanding correctly, section 46.03 of the penal code, which the zoo seems to be relying on, includes section 61.003 of the Texas Education Code for its definitions of educational facility. I do not seem to find the zoo on the list.

Be careful. You can make an argument that the PC would rely on the Education Code for all of the education differences, but it does not explicitly do so. It only refers to that section for the definition of colleges.

In remember a Christian School losing a battle with the state of Texas over licensing in the mid 70's; the legislature even passed new rules during the law suits and the schools were eventually shutdown. Obviously there are regulations and standards that must be met by private schools; surely they're somewhere in the codes.

[blackdog8200]

They sell beer and wine at school?

[sjfcontrol]

They sell beer and wine at school?

And have dangerous animals -- lions and tigers and bears, Oh My!

[sugar land dave]

If I am understanding correctly, section 46.03 of the penal code, which the zoo seems to be relying on, includes section 61.003 of the Texas Education Code for its definitions of educational facility. I do not seem to find the zoo on the list.

Be careful. You can make an argument that the PC would rely on the Education Code for all of the education differences, but it does not explicitly do so. It only refers to that section for the definition of colleges.

Actually on further review I see that those definitions do not become active for 46.03 until August 1, 2016 so I am wrong until that date when I may be right. Now if the AG would just issue some rulings on complaints we might have better clarity.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Tex. Penal Code §46.03(a)(1) on which the zoos are relying expressly uses the term "educational institution." That term is not defined in either the Penal Code or the Education Code, however there is a defined term that is very close to the one used in §46.03(a)(1). The defined term clearly would not include zoos. I won't go any further as we have anti-gun tolls/liars reading the form and I'm going to let them do their own research. Any government attorney that hasn't already researched this issue should be disbarred.

Chas.