Almost had to draw last night

[Kythas]

This will probably be a bit long. Comments and/or suggestions on how I could have handled things differently are welcome.

Last night I went to Oktoberfest with my ex-wife and her best friend. (Yeah, I know, but we've become friends again since the divorce).

As we left the gated area and were walking back to the car, we remembered we hadn't had a funnel cake yet. The girls went back inside to get the funnel cake and I decided to stay outside and sit on a bench just outside the exit. The bench had another bench directly behind it, and the backs of the two benches were touching. On the second bench was a guy, about 25-ish.

I sat down on the bench and took out my iPhone to kill some time while I waited on the girls. The guy then asks me "Where you coming from?"
Me: "Excuse me?"
Him: "Where you coming from?"
Me: "Just leaving here and heading home"

He waited about a minute and said "I need a ride home"

I ignored him, then he reached over and touched me on the arm. "I need a ride home"
Me: "Sorry, man, can't help you"

He waited a few more seconds, then reached over and touched my arm again. "I need a ride home to Oak Cliff"
Me: "Sorry, going the opposite way"

A few seconds later, he reaches over and touches me again. "I need a ride home"
Me: "Look, I said I can't help you. Leave me alone"

He then got up from the bench. I thought this was the end of things. But when the girls came through the exit, he made a beeline straight for them and said "Take me home". Note that there were maybe two dozen other people also walking out the exit at that time, and he didn't approach any of them. He went straight for the girls I was with. Must have watched them walk back in when they decided to get a funnel cake.

The girls ran straight to me and each girl grabbed one of my arms. My ex said to him "Sorry, we're with him". The guy then turned and walked away. I again thought this would be the end of things with him.

As we walked down Addison Circle to the area where the apartments and shops are, we decided to sit on one of the circular benches to eat the funnel cake. As we were sitting, I noticed the same guy sitting on a bench about 15 feet from us, glancing our way every now and then. As we were finishing up the funnel cake, he got up from the bench and walked straight towards me. Before he could say anything I said "No. I've already told you no. Leave us alone". He then walked around to the other side of the bench and sat down.

We all got up from the bench, and I decided to walk the girls to their car, as I didn't want them walking alone with this guy around. As we get up from the bench and start walking, the guy gets up and starts following us. I noticed this, turned around and said "Get away from us - now!" He continued walking straight at us, so I said again - louder - "Stop following us and get away. Now!" He continued coming at us with both his hands in his pants pockets. I should mention that he was wearing baggy pants with large front pockets that could easily have concealed a weapon.

After the second time, I reached down, moved my shirt from my gun, and grabbed the grip of my gun. I then pretty much shouted "STOP! TURN AROUND AND WALK AWAY FROM ME! NOW!" He then pulled his hands out of his pockets and put them in the air, but continued walking towards us! I again shouted "DO NOT COME ANY CLOSER! TURN AROUND AND WALK AWAY!" He kept his hands in the air, but continued walking to us. I shouted "GET BACK! TURN AROUND AND GET BACK!" The third time he stopped.

By the way, this was in the middle of the area where all the shops are in Addison Circle. It was very well lit. There was not a cop anywhere around - strange since Oktoberfest is crawling with police. I figured if a cop was around he would have come to see what the shouting was about, but nope. Never a cop around when you need one.

Since he stopped, I told the girls to head to the car. I followed them, looking behind me at the same time. He continued to follow us, but at a greater distance. When we got into the parking garage, they were parked on the second level. As we entered, I saw the guy walk by the garage and go down the street.

We went up to the second level and walked to their car. As we're standing next to the car saying our good-byes, HE COMES UP THE STAIRS INTO THE GARAGE AND STARTS WALKING TOWARD US! I again put my hand on my gun and stared at him, but didn't say anything. He started to angle around us, went to one of the corners about 50 feet away, and stood there watching us. The girls got into their car and left while I kept an eye on him. I then walked back to my car (which was in a different garage) and didn't see him again.

All in all, since I didn't have to draw or shoot and we all made it home ok, I call it a win. Any comments or suggestions on anything I could have done differently?

[suthdj]

I would add call 911 to the list and report the guy. Other then that very scary experience armed or not.

[chuckybrown]

What a terribly frightening incident. Good thing you had your weapon, or you could have been beaten, perhaps knifed, or worse. Your situation is exactly why everyone should have a CHL. Scary stuff, but I'm glad you were able to come home and post your episode.....

C

[Lumberjack98]

Wow!

I think that you handled yourself well. My only comment - After the second encounter, get out your cell phone, call information and get connected to the local police while he clearly sees and hears you.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[Beiruty]

You should have reported the guy and filed charges. It seems a mentally disturbed man or under the influence of drugs. He was persisting in his stalking and aggressive behavior.

Don't you have a cell phone? Use it.

[Kythas]

You know, at the time calling 911 never entered my mind. My sole focus was on making sure the girls and myself weren't hurt.

All 3 of us had cell phones, and I don't think any of us thought about pulling one out. I was too focused on the threat, and the girls were too scared, I think. I was carrying two empty beer steins in my off hand (I didn't drink, by the way, but both girls did). My ex did grab the steins out of my hand when I grabbed my gun. She said later she did that because she thought I'd need both hands if I had to draw. Presence of mind to do that, but not to break out the phone. Hmmm...

Just goes to show why you need some sort of plan thought out before something like this happens. If you're ever in a situation like this, the person who's not focused on the threat should be on the phone with police.

Otherwise, your brain kind of shuts down and goes into fight or flight mode. But then, God didn't make us with a third "Call the cops" survival mode.

[Excaliber]

You know, at the time calling 911 never entered my mind. My sole focus was on making sure the girls and myself weren't hurt.

All 3 of us had cell phones, and I don't think any of us thought about pulling one out. I was too focused on the threat, and the girls were too scared, I think. I was carrying two empty beer steins in my off hand (I didn't drink, by the way, but both girls did). My ex did grab the steins out of my hand when I grabbed my gun. She said later she did that because she thought I'd need both hands if I had to draw. Presence of mind to do that, but not to break out the phone. Hmmm...

Just goes to show why you need some sort of plan thought out before something like this happens. If you're ever in a situation like this, the person who's not focused on the threat should be on the phone with police.

Otherwise, your brain kind of shuts down and goes into fight or flight mode. But then, God didn't make us with a third "Call the cops" survival mode.

Good observations. Your brain literally does go into "survival mode" as your heart rate goes up, and your cognitive abilities (read: the ability to think) go rapidly downhill, leaving you operating on your "reptilian brain" with only what you have thought of before and trained yourself to do. Your mind slows down a lot, and you literally become "stupid" in the sense that you can't think flexibly and rapidly like you normally do. Those who don't plan ahead on the theory that "You never know what you'll do until you're in the situation, so I'll just wait 'til I'm in it to come up with a plan" find themselves in fast deep water when that time comes.

You did well in handling an unusually determined street character whose aggressive stalking was certainly reason for concern that he had the potential to carry through to violence, and you did a great job of keeping him out of touching distance where even an unarmed man is a serious threat.

I agree with Beiruty that the subject was most likely either deranged or chemically rearranged, making him even more unpredictable and dangerous. Fortunately, you'll never know for sure if he would have actually harmed you because your strong defensive commands and aggressive response helped him realize it wouldn't be a cake walk if he decided to go for it.

In addition to the earlier comments on using the cell phone (which would produce an eventual response, but likely with enough of a delay to not solve the immediate problem) I suggest adding a few other things to your repertoire for next time:

1. When someone approaches from the front, look behind you. Often enough, he's only the distractor and the bigger problem will approach from the rear. If there is anyone else behind and looking at you and you have someone else with you, assign that person to stand back to back with you to keep an eye on them and advise you if they approach or do anything you need to know about while you deal with the guy in front.

2. From your description, you were well within range for a successful knife attack but without justification to use deadly force, as you knew. If someone advances on you as he did, try to put something between his line of approach and you to prevent him from being able to run a few steps and attack you before you can effectively react. A bench, a planter, a parked car, a tree, or a mailbox are examples that work just fine.

3. In the situation you described, when you were in the area of the shops, consider going into an open establishment with lots of people in it and disappearing into the crowd while you make your 911 call. It makes you hard to find and pursue. If there aren't any crowded places, an uncrowded one will do because it increases the number of witnesses and the possibility that someone else might help out if your antagonist follows and confronts you inside. It also increases the chances that someone else will call 911. Multiple calls decrease response time by increasing dispatch priority. Stay inside until police arrive and sort things out.

4. Another option if you're caught outside with no open stores and traffic is light, is the New York City tactic of moving to the center of the roadway under a streetlight. Although it gives you the added burden of keeping an eye out so you don't get run over by a DUI or cellphone preoccupied driver, many street characters are comfortable working in the shadows, but don't like operating where their actions can be seen for a couple of hundred yards. Intersections are even better because you can be seen from all directions. Taking the incident there also increases the chances that any police vehicle that crosses the street your on at another intersection may take note of the unusual activity and check it out. Passing motorists who see you in trouble may also call 911 for you, which you can encourage by shouting "Call police!" as they drive by.

5. In a situation like the one you described, you were in immediate danger, the situation was fluid and could have gone seriously south at any moment. If someone with you was able to call 911, tell them to ask the dispatcher to stay on the line to receive updates on the situation until police arrive. This has the added benefit of adding your shouted commands and a time line to the dispatch tape. These things come in mighty handy if you end up having to use force.

[KD5NRH]

As we walked down Addison Circle to the area where the apartments and shops are, we decided to sit on one of the circular benches to eat the funnel cake. As we were sitting, I noticed the same guy sitting on a bench about 15 feet from us, glancing our way every now and then.
<SNIP>
Any comments or suggestions on anything I could have done differently?

At the point where it became obvious that he was following me away from a well-patrolled area, I would have gone back to the event site. Find a cop, and get the guy checked out. He's a long way from home, and in a prime spot to rob people more likely to have cash than his neighbors.

Edit to add: unless the service has improved a lot since I was there, it's also worth noting that that's not an easy area to get to on DART during the weekends, so he must have put some effort into it.

My ex did grab the steins out of my hand when I grabbed my gun. She said later she did that because she thought I'd need both hands if I had to draw.

She was already thinking about your reload

[ELB]

Overall it was a win -- you and the girls got away unharmed. Good job.

But since you asked, some thoughts:

Calling 911 is not YOUR first priority. Dealing with Mr. Pest is. Only call when you are sure he is not an immediate threat. If one of the girls can do it instead great. I do think you should have called 911 once you had your girls and yourself safe -- if Mr. Pest had called about that nut with the gun he kept running into, you might have had some problems for awhile.

You were running a bluff with your gun and he called you on it. You put your hand on the grip, but did you really think you had justification to shoot him? If you did, why didn't you? If he did have a gun in his pocket, he could have easily drawn and shot you before you could react -- and then argued that he shot you in self-defense.

If you had shot him while his hands were in his pockets, you could at least argue that his behavior was an immediate threat of force, and his concealed hands may have contained a weapon. When he threw his hands up, but kept walking, he was calling you on use of the gun. His thoughts may not have been this rational about it, but effectively this is what he did. Had you shot him, I think it would have been a tough case to make. Especially if there was video of him with his hands in the air, or witnesses you didn't notice.

During this same part of the incident, you didn't say that you moved, so I assume you were standing still? When an attacker or potential attacker is moving in on you, MOVE -- and scan, look around for the other threat like KD5 mentioned Some call it getting of the line of force, or getting of the X, but whatever, move laterally, angle back or forward, but don't stay in the position that the attacker has made his plan on. One, it is harder for him to hit you when you are moving (if he has a gun), and maybe more importantly, it disrupts his plan, takes the initiative away from him. Move back and forth, keep shouting at him (and keep scanning for other threats). Tell the girls to run, hide, do something, but MOVE. I suggest you now have a talk with the family about how to handle future incidents, CHLs, and such. I'll bet they will be very receptive to this right now...

At this point a good blast of pepper spray may have been very helpful. I keep it handy to my left hand, so my right is still free for my pistol if need be. Pepper spray is not magic, but it discourages some people, and if he pushed through it and still tried to engage you, you'd have a lot better case (and reason) to engage more forcibily.

[dewayneward]

I think you handled yourself very well in this scenario. My computer chair response would have been to call 911, but we all know that that wasnt the first priority. Essentially 911 is a recording service for the trial since we all know that the event would be over before the cops arrived.

As I read this event it just goes to show that peopl are nuts, unless this guy was oblivious to you going for your gun, he was DARING you to go for it, kinda like "you aint got the guts". Now either he was high, stupid, are had brass ones. Wow.

I think you showed more restraint given the circumstances than I would have. I would have beaded after (or while) the first "stop" event. What this told me is that you REALLY didnt want to have to shoot this guy EVEN though he was threatening you and your family. It really goes against the anti gunners mentality of shooting someone over a mean look or something as silly.

How far was this joker during the event where you yelled at him 3 times and he continued walking towards you. I am guessing that it was a decent distance, but given this whackjobs behavior, no distance was far enough.

Good job, all lived to tell. computer chair comment would have been to call the cops so this fella didnt decide to prey on some other person.

[C-dub]

Our plan has always been for my wife to call 911, while I deal with our security until the police arrive. We have not actually made it to this threat level yet.

Excaliber, point #1 is excellent advice. Many people determined to harm us will use this distraction method.

Kythas, I think you did outstanding! The only thing I would have done differently is to have one of the women call 911, but I understand that sometimes we just don't think of everything. You definitely reached the threat level that warranted a 911 call.

[Kythas]

Thanks, everyone. Regarding some of the responses:

1. The area where this happened was well lit. All this occurred under 3 street lamps in a grassy median. There was a road to each side of the median, sidewalks on the other side of the road, and people both in front of me and behind me on the sidewalks walking to their cars, yet the girls and I, and the guy, were the only people within about 50 feet of me.

2. The first stop command occurred when he was about 20 feet away, and he finally stopped when he was about 10 feet away. I had already made the decision after the last stop command that if he came any closer I was going to draw. Thank God it didn't come to that.

3. The entire time this was happening, I was walking backwards trying to keep distance between him and myself. I had my right hand on my gun and my left arm straight in front of me with my hand up in a "Stop" position, with my palm facing toward him. Moving fast is not much of an option for me, as I had a motorcycle accident in April which shattered my left knee and I'm still recovering from it. Perhaps he saw my limp and decided I was an easy target because of it.

4. Yes, I should have called 911 or found a cop after the incident. But the adrenaline was flowing and I was in fight or flight mode, and afterward I was just glad it was resolved peacefully. During the time it was happening, the thought honestly never entered my head to call 911. I know that sounds strange, but that's how it was.

5. I really didn't want to have to shoot him. I wanted to give him every opportunity to disengage from us as I possibly could. I did not get a CHL so I could shoot people, I did so to protect me and my family. That being said, I had made the decision already to draw if he came any closer than he did after my third "Stop" command. I have already made the decision long ago that I will never draw until I feel it is justified to shoot.

6. I just signed up for the CHL Protection Plan. Suddenly, the $129 yearly fee sounds like a bargain compared to the tens of thousands in legal fees I might have incurred had it gone south.

All in all, I feel last night validated every argument I've ever had about getting a CHL and made all the expense and trouble of getting it worth it.

[joe817]

Kythas, I think you did an outstanding job of keeping you and the ladies safe. Thank goodness the situation did not escalate further. Thank you for sharing this with us, as we can ALL learn from this unfortunate experience.

I cannot add further to those that have already commented except to say we should all review this real life experience often, and never forget this can happen to anyone of us, at any time, anywhere. And plan accordingly.

By reliving this event(in our minds eye), and having a definite course of action to take....the steps YOU took, plus the invaluable observations of the other commentors, we will be able to come out of the incident unharmed, when it happens to us. It's not a question of "if", but one of "when". My $.02 worth.