New member needs advice with a serious issue

[SSG1981]

First let me start by saying that I’m a new member. I have been a Texas CHL holder for almost 1 year now. If im posting this in the wrong section please let me know. I just have a serious question that no one is able to answer for me. My question is regarding something serious that happened to my brother last week and I would like to hear the opinions of people with more legal knowledge than me. My brother lives in a decent quiet neighborhood, he just recently got new neighbors that are renting the house next door. They have been living there for the past 2 months now. Unfortunately these new neighbors are the type of people that like to party every weekend and listen to their music loud up until late hours of the night.
He has talked to them about lowering their music but they ignored him, well last weekend once again the new neighbors were having another party. My brother waited until 1:30 am until he finally said that’s enough and decided to call the police. The police showed up about 20 minutes later and the neighbors stopped their music. Once the police left, the drunk neighbor went and knocked on my brothers front door, my brother open the door and the neighbor started yelling and cursing at him, it got so bad that he actually verbally threatened my brother. My brother is a very peaceful and religious man so he didn’t do anything about it. I know In my case I would of reacted completely different . First of all If I have to open my door past 9 pm I always have my gun by my side, you never know nowdays. If that would of happened to me and someone threatened my life or my family's life I would of pull my gun out , call 911 and hold the guy at gun point until the police showed up. Now I know this is a touchy subject but I really need some advice with this. If someone threatens my life in my own front porch at 2 am. Am I justified to pull my gun out?? I would appreciate any input and opinions from you guys.

[MoJo]

Step back inside, close and lock the door, and call the cops again. Verbal threats are just hot air and are not a reason to use deadly force. If the drunk had a weapon then the story would be different.

[G26ster]

I see big trouble if you do display your weapon.

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise...

PC §9.31

(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

[C-dub]

Step back inside, close and lock the door, and call the cops again. Verbal threats are just hot air and are not a reason to use deadly force. If the drunk had a weapon then the story would be different.

Very touchy and sensitive situation. If your brother could, I would try contacting the owner (You said the trouble makers are renting, right?) and explain the situation and ask that they not renew the lease. I bet there is also a fair amount if not significant damage to the house that the landlord wouldn't be happy about.

[snatchel]

I think your brother did well to stay calm.

I also think that if you were to pull your gun because a guy is verbally threatening you, your making a big mistake. Words are provoking, no doubt, but they do not constitute drawing a gun on someone--even at 2 a.m. Keep in mind that you shouldn't even pull a gun unless your prepared to shoot them down. Otherwise, it's an empty threat and does you no good. Once the guns out, it's game over--there is no going back. God forbid the person who gets shot is unarmed, then you will be in the same boat as Zimmerman. But alas, it's your call.

If someone is on your porch at 2 a.m., don't answer. If you have reason to believe that they are a threat, call the police and let them sort it out. Ensure that the door is locked, and wait. If they bust your door down, they are fair game to getting shot down.

[SSG1981]

Thanks for the advice, I guess just the taught of someone threatening the life of my family was definitely clouding my judgement. Now I am glad I decided to ask you guys

[magicglock]

I don't understand why some people feel compelled to answer a phone or answer the door. Your brother exercised great control and did exactly what he should have done minus the part where he opened the door. A knock on my door at 2:00am never equals anything good. In my opinion your brother should not have answered the door and just called the police again. To answer your question, I would not pull my weapon unless I intended to shoot it. And if I was in a situation that I felt I needed to pull my weapon I would seriously reconsider my actions that led to me being in that situation in the first place.

[C-dub]

At my previous residence there were two drug houses on our street. One of them almost directly across from our house. All the neighbors became aware of it and watched them so much they eventually felt they could not conduct their business any longer and moved. It didn't help them much either that multiple folks called the police on them or that the police arrested the man and took him away more than once. The other house's occupants just decided it wasn't worth it and moved before being arrested. The were both renters.

Get more people involved. They just might move away on their own if enough people make it known to them that they are unwanted.

[Skiprr]

I see big trouble if you do display your weapon.

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise...

PC §9.31

(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

It's important to read the sections of the statutes in their entirety. For example, PC §9.04 reads:

The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

I believe that's a very different meaning than you intended. But the snippet from PC §9.31 does apply directly to the OP's description of the scenario.

An aside: the entire Penal Code Section 9 is not very long. It's less than 4,000 words, or about equal to 16 pages of a novel. But IMHO these are the most important 4,000 words that a CHL holder can read. And should study, and read again...regularly. Section 9 is updated at this link about two or three months following every Texas legislative session, and I think is a more complete resource than the DPS CHL LS-16:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... m/PE.9.htm

SSG1981 has received some good advice for his brother about a very sticky situation. As always, going to guns should be only an immediately-necessary choice: once you present a firearm, you've escalated the situation about as much as a civilian can. If your brother had drawn his pistol and the neighbor quietly backed down, does anyone think it would end there? I doubt it.

[G26ster]

I see big trouble if you do display your weapon.

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise...

PC §9.31

(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

It's important to read the sections of the statutes in their entirety. For example, PC §9.04 reads:

The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

I believe that's a very different meaning than you intended. But the snippet from PC §9.31 does apply directly to the OP's description of the scenario.

PC §9.31 says force is not justified in response to verbal provocation. We agree on that. PC §9.04 says that the production of a weapon does not constitute the use of deadly force. Are you saying that it also does not constitute the use of force? It would seem to me that while the production of a weapon is not deadly force, it still constitutes force, based on the first sentence of PC §9.04 . I want to make sure I am clear on the statute, so I'm asking the question.

[Skiprr]

I see big trouble if you do display your weapon.

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise...

PC §9.31

(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

It's important to read the sections of the statutes in their entirety. For example, PC §9.04 reads:

The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

I believe that's a very different meaning than you intended. But the snippet from PC §9.31 does apply directly to the OP's description of the scenario.

PC §9.31 says force is not justified in response to verbal provocation. We agree on that. PC §9.04 says that the production of a weapon does not constitute the use of deadly force. Are you saying that it also does not constitute the use of force? It would seem to me that while the production of a weapon is not deadly force, it still constitutes force, based on the first sentence of PC §9.04 . I want to make sure I am clear on the statute, so I'm asking the question.

Your post truncated the wording of PC §9.04. So your meaning was unclear to me.

But we agree.

The text of PC §9.04 stands alone. The production of a weapon, IMO, represents the use of force. However, the entire text of Penal Code Section 9 must be read to understand what differentiates force and deadly force.

[G26ster]

Your post truncated the wording of PC §9.04. So your meaning was unclear to me.

But we agree.

The text of PC §9.04 stands alone. The production of a weapon, IMO, represents the use of force. However, the entire text of Penal Code Section 9 must be read to understand what differentiates force and deadly force.

Thanks for clarifying. I usually quote the entire statute, but for some reason I thought my point was made with the snipit of PC §9.04.

[OldCannon]

Ability - Opportunity - Jeopardy.

http://www.corneredcat.com/Ability_Oppo ... _Jeopardy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I love pointing this article out to people. It's well written, unpretentious, and covers the key points ANY gun owner should know.

[tacticool]

I don't understand why some people feel compelled to answer a phone or answer the door. Your brother exercised great control and did exactly what he should have done minus the part where he opened the door. A knock on my door at 2:00am never equals anything good. In my opinion your brother should not have answered the door and just called the police again. To answer your question, I would not pull my weapon unless I intended to shoot it. And if I was in a situation that I felt I needed to pull my weapon I would seriously reconsider my actions that led to me being in that situation in the first place.

Hindsight is 20/20 but that's often the best response to someone banging on your door at 2am, especially if it's someone known to the police. Call 911.

Even better is to have your wife, girlfriend, sister, or other female resident call 911 to report the drunk guy pounding on her door at 2am. It wouldn't hurt any if she sounds a little hysterical. Bonus points if his shouting and threats can be heard over the phone. Remember that 911 calls are usually recorded so a good performance goes a long way if the conflict with the bad neighbor ever ends up in a court of law.

[Excaliber]

I don't understand why some people feel compelled to answer a phone or answer the door. Your brother exercised great control and did exactly what he should have done minus the part where he opened the door. A knock on my door at 2:00am never equals anything good. In my opinion your brother should not have answered the door and just called the police again. To answer your question, I would not pull my weapon unless I intended to shoot it. And if I was in a situation that I felt I needed to pull my weapon I would seriously reconsider my actions that led to me being in that situation in the first place.

A decent wireless intercom solves these problems by permitting easy verbal communication without unlocking the door or even being anywhere near it if the belligerent visitor decides to break in.

It allows you to assess the situation while maintaining a position at the point with the greatest tactical advantage in your home with all your defensive tools and communications equipment at the ready in case the situation goes south.

It also provides a considerable deterrent factor to those with ill intent. It's clear evidence that someone has given the uninvited visitor situation some thought and placed said visitor at a position of tactical disadvantage. For most folks it wouldn't be a stretch to figure that one might very well encounter more unpleasant surprises if an uninvited entry were attempted.

Bad guys get pretty itchy and sense bad vibes when they encounter this situation and often remember urgent business somewhere else.

The major upgrade in safety these devices provide is well worth the small investment.