Police Dept Signage

[rtschl]

Hoping to get advice if the following is a violation of 411.209 by having 30.06 & 30.07 signs. If so, I'll start the process of filing complaint to the city and followup to the AG if not corrected. But I'm not sure it is a violation.

A Ft. Worth suburb Police department has correct 30.06 and 30.07 signs on the front of their building. This building is only used by the police department and supporting personnel. They also have a holding facility there. However, the public entrance where the signs are posted only lets you into the lobby. Without card access or being buzzed through you cannot get into any other part as all other doors are locked.

I've read through some previous topics from 2008 and last spring here: viewtopic.php?t=13566 and here: viewtopic.php?t=76760 but I'm unclear if it applies to this specific situation.

So is it statutorily off limits? If not are they required to provide safe storage?

[The Wall]

I'm thinking maybe it's because of the jail. Interesting question.

[kg5ie]

IMHO

You whould be not able to carry only in the same "secure" areas where the LEO cannot carry. Other areas are tax payer supported. Interested to see if this holds.

I recently filed official complaint on the City of Forrest Hill over their Civic Center being 06 and 07 posted.

[bearlesjr]

I realize that this doesn't pertain to your 30.06, 30.07 question but might be of some relevance. I and my team service (HVAC) 2 local PD's down here. We have card passes to move around anywhere inside the buildings. Most of us carry large knives on our belts and they have never given us any static over it. The guns are locked in the truck. The only thing that they did ask is that we remove them before entering the jail and provided us with lockers. The same lockers officers used to deposit their guns in.

[AJSully421]

Which PD?

[rtschl]

Which PD?

White Settlement

[AJSully421]

Which PD?

White Settlement

Gotcha. I wanted to make sure it wasn't Benbrook. I had a 30 minute conversation with the Benbrook Chief about their signs yesterday. Apparently the Municipal Court is in the PD building, and the PD window is where you post bond for someone in the city jail. Posting bond is a legitimate court function (being that a magistrate decides bond), so then the shared lobby then becomes "an office of the court". The Chief was extremely knowledgeable about CHL laws, and I know guys on the department, and the chief is very pro 2A, and will sign class 3 stuff by the way. He said they went round and round with the DA's office about it, and it is not so much that they wanted to post signs, but that they felt that they needed to warn visitors that it was a statutorily off limits premises due to the court office status.

Go ahead and type up a nicely worded complaint to WS, and you might make mention that you would like to hear from the city attorney or someone else to discuss it before you file with the AG's office. They might have something similar, or they might be completely uninformed about the fact that they cannot post. You might get the whole thing taken care of with one letter and one phone call. If they are wrong and dig in, file away.

[srothstein]

It is my understanding that the police department may ban carry in any secure area of the building, which can be defined as any part not generally open to the public. This is not related to the detention cells or anything, just to the police station itself. Part of the logic for this is that police may have suspects anywhere in the building so weapons can provide a security risk. If they do so, they must provide safe storage for CHLs to leave their weapons.

This would make the small open lobby area legal for you to carry in, IMO. I am not sure the signs would be ruled illegal, but I am not sure they would be ruled legal either. If I were going to give the city notice, I would include the section requiring secure storage and just ask the signs to be moved to the secure doors and the storage provided. See subsection b of Government Code Section 411.207 here.

[rtschl]

Steve,

I was thinking the same thing, but I stumble on one part of 411.207. It seems section C makes it legal to carry, but section D 1A allows them to prohibit because they exclusively conduct official business in the lobby.

(d) In this section:

(1) "Law enforcement facility" means a building or a portion of a building used exclusively by a law enforcement agency that employs peace officers as described by Articles 2.12(1) and (3), Code of Criminal Procedure, and support personnel to conduct the official business of the agency. The term does not include:

(A) any portion of a building not actively used exclusively to conduct the official business of the agency; or

(B) any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk, walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

(2) "Nonpublic, secure portion of a law enforcement facility" means that portion of a law enforcement facility to which the general public is denied access without express permission and to which access is granted solely to conduct the official business of the law enforcement agency.

[Pawpaw]

Steve,

I was thinking the same thing, but I stumble on one part of 411.207. It seems section C makes it legal to carry, but section D 1A allows them to prohibit because they exclusively conduct official business in the lobby.

(d) In this section:

(1) "Law enforcement facility" means a building or a portion of a building used exclusively by a law enforcement agency that employs peace officers as described by Articles 2.12(1) and (3), Code of Criminal Procedure, and support personnel to conduct the official business of the agency. The term does not include:

(A) any portion of a building not actively used exclusively to conduct the official business of the agency; or

(B) any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk, walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

(2) "Nonpublic, secure portion of a law enforcement facility" means that portion of a law enforcement facility to which the general public is denied access without express permission and to which access is granted solely to conduct the official business of the law enforcement agency.

Don't forget what it says just before that...

GC §411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM. (a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace
officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.
(b) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties may temporarily disarm a license holder when a license holder enters a non-public, secure portion of a law enforcement facility, if the law enforcement agency provides a gun locker where the peace officer can secure the license holder’s handgun. The peace officer shall secure the handgun in the locker and shall return the handgun to the license holder immediately after the license holder leaves the non-public, secure portion of the law enforcement facility.
(c) A law enforcement facility shall prominently display at each entrance to a non-public, secure portion of the facility a sign that gives notice in both English and Spanish that, under this section, a peace officer may temporarily disarm a license holder when the license holder enters the non-public, secure portion of the facility. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height. The sign shall be displayed in a clearly visible and conspicuous manner.

[rtschl]

Pawpaw,

But that says non-public secure portion. The lobby in question is a public area and non secure. They have a service window for records, permits, etc. There was another window with a phone, but I didn't pay attention to what it is used for because it was closed and the records/permit window was closer and where I needed to be.

[Caliber]

Just throwing this out there regarding the OP's question:

Since the City does not own the property that the PD is occupying, doesn't the actual owner of the property have the right to post 30.06 and 30.07 signs on the PD's door? I would say that they do and the signs would not be a violation.

[rtschl]

Just throwing this out there regarding the OP's question:

Since the PD does not own the property, doesn't the owner of the property have the right to post 30.06 and 30.07 signs on the PD's door?

The City owns the property. Cities cannot post 30.06/30.07 except in limited circumstances (open meeting etc.).

[Caliber]

OK, for discussion purposes, let's say it's a PD neighborhood office, like the Fort Worth PD office that's in a strip center in Wedgewood. The City does not own that building. If there are 30.06/30.07 signs on the PD's door at that location, would that be a violation of the property owner placed them there?

[Pawpaw]

Just throwing this out there regarding the OP's question:

Since the City does not own the property that the PD is occupying, doesn't the actual owner of the property have the right to post 30.06 and 30.07 signs on the PD's door? I would say that they do and the signs would not be a violation.

GC §411.209. WRONGFUL EXCLUSION OF CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSE HOLDER.
(a) A state agency or a political subdivision of the state may not provide notice by a communication described by Section 30.06, Penal Code, or by any sign expressly referring to that law or to a concealed handgun license, that a license holder carrying a handgun under the authority of this subchapter is prohibited from entering or remaining on a premises or other place owned or leased by the governmental entity unless license holders are prohibited from carrying a handgun on the premises or other place by Section 46.03 or 46.035, Penal Code.