encounter at wallyworld - calling all armchair QB's

[gigag04]

FWIW, here is what I would do.

As an off duty LEO, I would politely approach the group, and respectfully say something like the following:

"Fellas, hate to interupt - I know you guys are just trying to have a good time but if you could please keep the cussing to a dull roar around the children here, I would really appreciate it."

It is lighthearted, and simple, and allows me to do the mature thing of "doing something" about the problem. If they choose to escelate, I would excuse myself, and go back to minding my own business. I would then call the local PD and have them all cited for DOC-Language, or at least have them identified by local LE, and go to the muni/JP prosecutor, and swear out a class C complaint, reciting my detailed narrative. Then it becomes an arrest warrant - also, any citizen can go to the local prosecutor and request to file a class C complaint for something like that. They might not take the charges, but if you are detailed enough to establish probably cause, then it probably will.

[AnthonyTX]

I have to thank you for posting this thread because it has been quite informative!

I agree with what most have said and had to reread the "at the ready" comment. As others have pointed out a jury wouldn't be siding with you when the prosecution quickly paints the picture of you escalating the situation.

I won't say that you should leave the gun at home, but I will say take some time to think about how many scenarios turn out positive vs negative. I'm hoping you conclude that having a wild west shoot out and what you did is in one column And an abundant list of situations for deescalation in the other.

[Purplehood]

I'm probaly not going to be the most popular guy around for saying this but.......I would have to say he has as much right to practice his 1st Amendment as you have to practice your 2nd Amendment. I don't use profanity around the kids, in public, or that much in general; however, it is not my job to tell someone else the type of language they can use in public. If a friend or family member chooses to use that type of language in my house around my kids, I would tell them not to IN MY HOUSE. Otherwise, I would take it as an opportunity to teach my child that that type of language is reserved for adults and not appropriate for children. I don't think putting your hand on your piece was out of line given the confrentation, if it had escalated you need every second to count and having your hand at the ready would increase your odds if things went South.

And it was your 1st Amendment right to ask someone to stop exercising theirs. BTW, what is the point of the law prohibiting abusive language if the 1st Amendment is going to allow it anyway?

[jamisjockey]

I'm probaly not going to be the most popular guy around for saying this but.......I would have to say he has as much right to practice his 1st Amendment as you have to practice your 2nd Amendment. I don't use profanity around the kids, in public, or that much in general; however, it is not my job to tell someone else the type of language they can use in public. If a friend or family member chooses to use that type of language in my house around my kids, I would tell them not to IN MY HOUSE. Otherwise, I would take it as an opportunity to teach my child that that type of language is reserved for adults and not appropriate for children. I don't think putting your hand on your piece was out of line given the confrentation, if it had escalated you need every second to count and having your hand at the ready would increase your odds if things went South.

And it was your 1st Amendment right to ask someone to stop exercising theirs. BTW, what is the point of the law prohibiting abusive language if the 1st Amendment is going to allow it anyway?

The first amendment doesn't allow all speech.

[The Annoyed Man]

"Fellas, hate to interupt - I know you guys are just trying to have a good time but if you could please keep the cussing to a dull roar around the children here, I would really appreciate it."

It is lighthearted, and simple, and allows me to do the mature thing of "doing something" about the problem. If they choose to escelate, I would excuse myself, and go back to minding my own business.

And that pretty much describes how I have handled things in the past. A little humor goes a long way to defusing things, while still accomplishing the goal. That's why, in my experience, asking someone to mind their manners has never been a bad experience for me. And like I pointed out previously, in the couple of instances where the results were not what I desired, I just smiled and backed away from the confrontation.

When I talk about "guarding the culture," it doesn't mean that we must be willing to die on that particular hill on that particular day, but it does mean that we must be willing to try making a difference in these kinds of situations if a rational risk assessment indicates that the risks are minimal. And it is beyond question that I'm not going to do something spectacularly foolhardy. Almost everything about the way I live my life is about risk avoidance, and I've posted about this facet of my life many times before. I don't go clubbing. I avoid bars. I stay home at night, etc., etc. But I am not going to passively surrender the remaining quality of my life to barbarians without trying to reason with them when I think it is called for; and more often than not, they are usually just engaged in a little boorish horseplay, and they're almost glad that somebody suggested to them that they rein things in a bit.

Anyway, that's just me.

[The Annoyed Man]

I'm probaly not going to be the most popular guy around for saying this but.......I would have to say he has as much right to practice his 1st Amendment as you have to practice your 2nd Amendment. I don't use profanity around the kids, in public, or that much in general; however, it is not my job to tell someone else the type of language they can use in public. If a friend or family member chooses to use that type of language in my house around my kids, I would tell them not to IN MY HOUSE. Otherwise, I would take it as an opportunity to teach my child that that type of language is reserved for adults and not appropriate for children. I don't think putting your hand on your piece was out of line given the confrentation, if it had escalated you need every second to count and having your hand at the ready would increase your odds if things went South.

And it was your 1st Amendment right to ask someone to stop exercising theirs. BTW, what is the point of the law prohibiting abusive language if the 1st Amendment is going to allow it anyway?

The first amendment doesn't allow all speech.

Correct. It protects it. But there are consequences for it, none-the-less.

[Purplehood]

I'm probaly not going to be the most popular guy around for saying this but.......I would have to say he has as much right to practice his 1st Amendment as you have to practice your 2nd Amendment. I don't use profanity around the kids, in public, or that much in general; however, it is not my job to tell someone else the type of language they can use in public. If a friend or family member chooses to use that type of language in my house around my kids, I would tell them not to IN MY HOUSE. Otherwise, I would take it as an opportunity to teach my child that that type of language is reserved for adults and not appropriate for children. I don't think putting your hand on your piece was out of line given the confrentation, if it had escalated you need every second to count and having your hand at the ready would increase your odds if things went South.

And it was your 1st Amendment right to ask someone to stop exercising theirs. BTW, what is the point of the law prohibiting abusive language if the 1st Amendment is going to allow it anyway?

The first amendment doesn't allow all speech.

Correct. It protects it. But there are consequences for it, none-the-less.

And that was my point, Gents.

[gigag04]

The 1st amendment does not protect language that is an unreasonable restriction or infringement on someone else's rights.


You can flick off the cops, but you cannot yell fire in a crowded room.

Nor can you force others to listen to your profanity. Texas Penal Code treats this in the section where the DOC statutes are codified.

[b322da]

With respect to all the commentators, and bouncing back to the OP, we are all well-advised to avoid reading certain specific advice as being generally applicable. In general, the 1st Amendment protects the use of profanity in public. The line tends to be drawn at “fighting words”— words “which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace.” Not a very distinct line there, even with regard to the OP's situation. I do think it is fair to predict that this test is with respect to a "reasonable man," and not with respect to one overly disposed to view words as "fighting words."

Also with respect the legislature in Austin, it has been demonstrated time and again the fact that something is enacted by the legislature, and signed by the governor, is rather poor support for its constitutionality. (Fighting words??)

[Bob in Big D]

So the BG's were cussing up a storm.......simple solution is to pick up your stuff and go to another checkout stand where there is a live person that will call the manager if it happens in front of them. You worry me that you take the BG's way too serious and escalated this almost to the point of drawing your gun. I hope that you learn, and not the hard way, that every time someone offends you that you don't draw your gun.

[Bullwhip]

I don't cuss. I may have said a word here and there when whacked my thumb with a hammer but I always looked around first. I don't like dirty language.

I've seen people like this who like to play tough and spout bad words and dare someone to say something. Its pretty hard to get in the mall these days unless you run through a bunch of them.

I teach my kids not to cuss. Idiots like this are a good lesson. Everyone is staring at them,so I tell my kid: hey,you see nobody likes them? They're not cool, tey just think they are with their buddies. Don't be like that.

I rather use them as a bad example than make them stop using words my kids already know.

[JNMAR]

Well at the risk of being chastised for posting off topic...on the other hand maybe it's not as it does relate to the cussing stuff.

A retired minister was looking for a good used lawn mower. After searching the classified ads he came across the one he wanted. He called the seller and inquired of the condition which he was told it's in very good condition and has been well cared for. He made an appointment to meet the guy and check out the mower. Arriving there he asked if it would start. "Sure, It'll start...just pull the choke out and give it a try". The preacher did as he was told and began pulling on the starter rope. Out of breath after 10-12 pulls he asked the seller what he was doing wrong. "Well", the guy said, "you gotta give it a good cussin". To which the preacher retorted, "Sir, I surrendered to preach the word of God over 30 years ago and I haven't uttered one cuss word since!". "That's okay" replyed the man..."just keep pulling on that string, it'll come back to ya".

[KD5NRH]

The first amendment doesn't allow all speech.

Yes, but fortunately, it does protect making fun of people who don't capitalize properly.

[austin-tatious]

Second:

• I don't believe that politely asking someone who is offending everyone around them to please not use such language in the presence of children rises to the level of a verbal provocation. Had the OP offered to whup the other guy's butt if he didn't pipe down, THAT would be a verbal provocation. If the OP had called the other guy names and defamed his momma, THAT would be a verbal provocation. But simply asking in a polite manner if the guy could refrain from cussing in the presence of children, that is NOT a verbal provocation in my book, and I don't think a jury would think it was either. In fact, the other guy's loud profanity was a verbal provocation and constituted a disturbance of the peace. It was, in short, illegal behavior.
  
  We have a serious problem on our hands, and it is the degradation and coarsening of our culture. I believe that our approach to it should be independent of whether we chose to carry a weapon or not, and it is independent of whether or not our individual morality is based in a particular religious tradition, or simple common decency. The reason that the culture is degrading and coarsening is that it has no more guardians. Those who used to stand in that gap have died off, and adults today have, by and large, abdicated their responsibility to stand as guardians of the culture. This is part of the larger picture of which one symptom is that only a minority of eligible citizens ever actually vote today. Citizens have abdicated their responsibilities to the body politic and to the culture. And by the way, I am not talking about any kind of western cultural chauvinism. Loud, foul-mouthed, and aggressive punks were deemed unacceptable in ancient Rome, in ancient Athens, in Elizabethan England, in Colonial America, in Ming dynasty Beijing, and in modern Tel Aviv. It is true whether your culture is Christian, Muslim, pagan animist, or Buddhist. It is never acceptable.
  
  I ask myself every day, "If not me, then who?" This does not mean that I am Batman or a ninja. I am not that stupid. None of us is. But if a loud and foul-mouthed lout is making life uncomfortable for everyone around, I am going to register my disapproval. I'm not going to threaten. I'm not going to mad-dog him. But I am going to quietly, and with a smile, ask in a friendly manner if they can mind their language in front of the women and children. I have done this any number of times, and without exception, the offender was a little bit embarrassed, apologized, and they modified their behavior... ...and I thanked them for their cooperation.
  
  This is not a provocation. This is an example of a responsible adult, standing in the gap. Edmund Burke is alleged to have said (there is some historical doubt that he actually did) that all that is necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing. Whether he said it or not, it is true. I'm not trying to toot my own horn. I just think that if more people were willing to speak up when confronted with this kind of behavior, we would see less of it. The fact that we see more and more of it is attributable, in part, to the fact that fewer and fewer people are willing to speak up to gently remind someone that their behavior is objectionable. You may not be able to fight the big picture, like crack addicted mothers who don't mother their cubs, and irresponsible men who abandon their children. But each one of us can, in small ways, contribute to the preservation of culture, and politely asking a profane person to tone it down for the audience's sake is one of those ways. Doing so doesn't make you a Batman wannabe. It makes you a guardian of the culture. That is a good thing.

I don't know why what TAM says here is not obvious to everyone. Before I had my CHL I did politely ask those who, in a public place with other people close by, cursed extensively or played overpowering loud music or read pornography where all could see to please tone it down for the benefit of everyone else in their presence. That behavior IS disturbing the peace, and it is NOT provocation to ask someone politely and with normal volume to stop that behavior while they are in public. A refusal by the one who disturbs the peace or an aggressive response means I ignore the refusal/aggression, and seek a higher authority (store manager, park ranger, cop) if I reasonably can. However, I've never had a situation where the other responded with aggression. Everyone I've asked to "tone it down" has been civil in the situation though not all have ceased their behavior. I do think, therefore, there are situations that would lead me to mentally and physically prepare to deal with an attack.

On the topic of disparity of force, this particular situation has it in spades. The OP is not going to be able to Kung Fu all four guys unless he's Jackie Chan in a movie or the aggressors are horribly inept.

[Bob in Big D]

While I agree with both you and TAM about asking the person or persons to tone it down alittle in as nice away as possible. If they do become agressive, the smart thing to do is look for that higher authority as you said, or move out of their area, however, in this situation you are in the checkout line at WM and the question was, do I draw if the BG comes after you?

As these things happen real fast no one has time to duck. The OP pulls his gun and fires and hits the BG. The round goes thru him and kills a little boy (pregnant woman...you fill in the blanks) being held by his grandfather in line behind the BG.....what then?????

I hope some have heard the expression "discretion is the better part of valor" (It is good to be brave, but it is also good to be careful.; If you are careful, you will not get into situations that require you to be brave)