Ethanol in your Gas: Lousy Gas Mileage?

[Heartland Patriot]

Major cities (like houston and Dallas) are required to have reformulated gasoline. Basically it must include an oxygenate like ethanol so that is burns cleaner. below is a web site that has a map to those.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasolinef ... /areas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This web site has some .pdfs. The one labeled chapter 3 contains information on performance of fuels and oxygenates. Usually you get a little less than a 3% reduction in mileage with oxygenated fuels.

If a station is outside of the manadated areas you could buy regular gasoline. The tanker trucks that deliver gasoline to the station get their gas from loading racks at a terminal or at a refinery. Those truck may or may not be branded to the refiner. Chevron may sell gasoline to BP stations, they just change the additive package. Ethanol is generally added at this stage for reformulated gasoline, so you could get regular or E85 at the rack, it just depends on what the customer is buying.

Ethanol replaced other oxidizing and octane enhanching constituent such as MTBE, which got a bad wrap. Just follow the money for making ethanol the choice to be appproved. MTBE was used as TEL was outlawed and while MTBE wasn't mandated by the government it was most certainly encouraged. Non-attainment area are mandated but nowadays ethanol is probably the easiest way to go for most areas as TAME and iso-octane for example are more costly by not being subsidized. Ethanol makes gasoline more volatile driving off nonpolar hydrocarbons which is curious since it's all about saving the planet. MTBE doesn't do that.

So does the highlighted phrase mean that the ethanol makes the gasoline vaporize more readily? I admit to a lack of chemistry knowledge beyond a few basic things. And when its REAL science like that, I'm more than willing to listen and learn.

[sookandy]

I'm not a science guy. But I did find this all an interesting read. MPG vs cost and all that, but no one brought up where ethanol comes from. Corn mostly? Less corn, higher beef prices. Less corn higher pop prices. Yes I'm a Yankee and said pop. A couple of years ago corn went nuts, my uncle who farms about 4000 acres banked off this and the ethanol craze.

Don't run it in your boat. And I wouldn't own an e85 vehicle or a hybrid for anything. Wait till you have to replace those batteries.

[Heartland Patriot]

I'm not a science guy. But I did find this all an interesting read. MPG vs cost and all that, but no one brought up where ethanol comes from. Corn mostly? Less corn, higher beef prices. Less corn higher pop prices. Yes I'm a Yankee and said pop. A couple of years ago corn went nuts, my uncle who farms about 4000 acres banked off this and the ethanol craze.

Don't run it in your boat. And I wouldn't own an e85 vehicle or a hybrid for anything. Wait till you have to replace those batteries.

Indeed, all batteries have a finite lifespan. Even with the proper maintenance and proper charge/discharge cycles, at some point batteries MUST get sent to a shop or recycled. As expensive as aircraft storage batteries of the lead-acid and ni-cad types are, I can only imagine what lithiums are going to cost, even without the FAA-approval process adding to it.

[WildBill]

I'm not a science guy. But I did find this all an interesting read. MPG vs cost and all that, but no one brought up where ethanol comes from. Corn mostly? Less corn, higher beef prices. Less corn higher pop prices. Yes I'm a Yankee and said pop. A couple of years ago corn went nuts, my uncle who farms about 4000 acres banked off this and the ethanol craze.

Don't run it in your boat. And I wouldn't own an e85 vehicle or a hybrid for anything. Wait till you have to replace those batteries.

Indeed, all batteries have a finite lifespan. Even with the proper maintenance and proper charge/discharge cycles, at some point batteries MUST get sent to a shop or recycled. As expensive as aircraft storage batteries of the lead-acid and ni-cad types are, I can only imagine what lithiums are going to cost, even without the FAA-approval process adding to it.

The corn used for making alcohol for fuel is subsidized by our taxes. The cost of producing ethanol from corn is high compared to the artifically low price. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[puma guy]

Major cities (like houston and Dallas) are required to have reformulated gasoline. Basically it must include an oxygenate like ethanol so that is burns cleaner. below is a web site that has a map to those.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasolinef ... /areas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This web site has some .pdfs. The one labeled chapter 3 contains information on performance of fuels and oxygenates. Usually you get a little less than a 3% reduction in mileage with oxygenated fuels.

If a station is outside of the manadated areas you could buy regular gasoline. The tanker trucks that deliver gasoline to the station get their gas from loading racks at a terminal or at a refinery. Those truck may or may not be branded to the refiner. Chevron may sell gasoline to BP stations, they just change the additive package. Ethanol is generally added at this stage for reformulated gasoline, so you could get regular or E85 at the rack, it just depends on what the customer is buying.

Ethanol replaced other oxidizing and octane enhanching constituent such as MTBE, which got a bad wrap. Just follow the money for making ethanol the choice to be appproved. MTBE was used as TEL was outlawed and while MTBE wasn't mandated by the government it was most certainly encouraged. Non-attainment area are mandated but nowadays ethanol is probably the easiest way to go for most areas as TAME and iso-octane for example are more costly by not being subsidized. Ethanol makes gasoline more volatile driving off nonpolar hydrocarbons which is curious since it's all about saving the planet. MTBE doesn't do that.

So does the highlighted phrase mean that the ethanol makes the gasoline vaporize more readily? I admit to a lack of chemistry knowledge beyond a few basic things. And when its REAL science like that, I'm more than willing to listen and learn.

In a word yes. Ethanol increases vapor pressure via a reaction far to complicated for me to describe. I am not a chemist, my experience is 35 years in a refinery that produced 140000 barrels of gasoline a day. Ethanol increases occurances of vapor lock. That increased volatility tranlates to releases of HC to the atmosphere. MTBE doesn't cause that reaction. Photo reaction of the HC produces smog, plus there are carcinogenic HC in gasoline such as benzene. There is not enough corn produced in America to supply the amount of ethanol needed to fuel our cars. I read once that even if all tha availble farmland in the US was planted with corn there is not enough. Hydrocarbon based fuels will be around for a long time. If the US did go strictly to ethanol for fuel that would mean refineries could lose incentive to run at all. Diesel and keresene (jet fuel) would have to be priced at ridiculous prices to make it worth while. There are no substitutes for them especially jet fuel that I'm aware of. I guess we'll be on battery power!

[WildBill]

Many people don't think about how alcohol is produced from corn and how much energy it costs to produce it.

The corn must be planted, using a tractor, it must be watered using pumps, it must be harvested using a tractor, it must be shipped to the processor to be shucked, removed from the cob and crushed and pumped into a fermenter [all requiring energy]. After the fermentation is finished, the liquid must be pumped into tanks and distilled [using heat] to purify it. The whole process isn't as "Green" as people might think.

[flb_78]

oh yeah, it's been proven in many studies that it takes about 1.5gallons of fuel to make 1 gallon of ethanol.

[Heartland Patriot]

Major cities (like houston and Dallas) are required to have reformulated gasoline. Basically it must include an oxygenate like ethanol so that is burns cleaner. below is a web site that has a map to those.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasolinef ... /areas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This web site has some .pdfs. The one labeled chapter 3 contains information on performance of fuels and oxygenates. Usually you get a little less than a 3% reduction in mileage with oxygenated fuels.

If a station is outside of the manadated areas you could buy regular gasoline. The tanker trucks that deliver gasoline to the station get their gas from loading racks at a terminal or at a refinery. Those truck may or may not be branded to the refiner. Chevron may sell gasoline to BP stations, they just change the additive package. Ethanol is generally added at this stage for reformulated gasoline, so you could get regular or E85 at the rack, it just depends on what the customer is buying.

Ethanol replaced other oxidizing and octane enhanching constituent such as MTBE, which got a bad wrap. Just follow the money for making ethanol the choice to be appproved. MTBE was used as TEL was outlawed and while MTBE wasn't mandated by the government it was most certainly encouraged. Non-attainment area are mandated but nowadays ethanol is probably the easiest way to go for most areas as TAME and iso-octane for example are more costly by not being subsidized. Ethanol makes gasoline more volatile driving off nonpolar hydrocarbons which is curious since it's all about saving the planet. MTBE doesn't do that.

So does the highlighted phrase mean that the ethanol makes the gasoline vaporize more readily? I admit to a lack of chemistry knowledge beyond a few basic things. And when its REAL science like that, I'm more than willing to listen and learn.

In a word yes. Ethanol increases vapor pressure via a reaction far to complicated for me to describe. I am not a chemist, my experience is 35 years in a refinery that produced 140000 barrels of gasoline a day. Ethanol increases occurances of vapor lock. That increased volatility tranlates to releases of HC to the atmosphere. MTBE doesn't cause that reaction. Photo reaction of the HC produces smog, plus there are carcinogenic HC in gasoline such as benzene. There is not enough corn produced in America to supply the amount of ethanol needed to fuel our cars. I read once that even if all tha availble farmland in the US was planted with corn there is not enough. Hydrocarbon based fuels will be around for a long time. If the US did go strictly to ethanol for fuel that would mean refineries could lose incentive to run at all. Diesel and keresene (jet fuel) would have to be priced at ridiculous prices to make it worth while. There are no substitutes for them especially jet fuel that I'm aware of. I guess we'll be on battery power!

THAT is why AVGAS doesn't have ethanol in it...already hard enough to minimize vapor lock for recips in aircraft...learned something, thanks.

[flb_78]

Burning any hydrocarbons creates water. Cars have been dripping water for years.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/re ... ustion.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“Perfect” Combustion Process:
FUEL (hydrocarbons) + AIR (oxygen and nitrogen) = CARBON DIOXIDE (CO2) + Water (H2O) + Nitrogen

Typical Real-World Engine Combustion Process:
FUEL (hydrocarbons) + AIR (oxygen and nitrogen) = UNBURNED or PARTIALLY BURNED HYDROCARBONS (VOCs) + NITROGEN OXIDES (NOx) + CARBON MONOXIDE (CO) + CARBON DIOXIDE (CO2) + Water (H2O)