CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

[mamabearCali]

No you are totally misreading what I am saying. He may very well have done many things legally unacceptable. The ND if prosecuted could likely lose him his CHL, would do so in most places if convicted. However at this time it has not been prosecuted, and thus he has not lost his CHL. Very often people do things illegal and either A) they are not caught or B) the DA chooses not to prosecute for whatever reason.

I put this in the same catagory as running off the road because you were texting on your phone/driving too fast in the rain/eating/too sleepy--all those things are illegal and can get you in serious hot water too, but only if you are caught and the DA wants to press charges. What I have said is that in my opinion if no one was hurt and the DA does not prosecute him then why is this thread treating this situation any differently than any of those. You can kill someone with negligence in a car too.

What we are saying is that he should be reported and charged.

Again your comparison is irrelevant. While one of your scenarios is illegal it is simply a Class C misdemeanor. The same as a regular traffic ticket. There is no law that states a Class C misdemeanor will result in the revocation of you DL. However, there is a law that states that a Class A or B misdemeanor is grounds for losing a CHL. Which is what he should be charged with.

Go right ahead then. As for me, I am not a police officer. It is not my job to report everything that happens around me to the officials. I don't live in a world where I tattle to the cops every time I see someone do something illegal/stupid. Now if someone was actually hurt or being hurt--ok--now I have a responsibility as a human being to do something.

I find it odd that you are very willing to stand with (apparent) current TX law and take a man's ability to defend his family for something as simple as showing his weapon to his friend (setting aside the ND as you did), or even the ND as it was a mistake and no one was hurt. You are quite ok with making him vulnerable to the criminal elements of society (and by those I mean the ones that actually want to do serious harm)--to the point of saying he should be reported and charged if he has not been so. I hope you find people more merciful to you, if you should ever prove to be human.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

The DA in each district decides whether to prosecute someone--not the VA statutes. That is where the discretion comes into play. Also the DA has to know something happened to prosecute--there are many places in VA that are very remote and a ND won't likely even get a call to the police.

Then what are yall so worried about if printing is not a problem.....Sorry I have been here and seen in several threatds several people drill into people's head BE CONCEALED! BE VERY CONCEALED! So I don't buy it that yall aren't worried about printing.

Same in Texas

There is more remote area in Texas than in Virginia, so the same here.

The problem is, it DIDN'T happen in a remote area, it happened in a CROWDED OFFICE.

And, those that are concerned about printing are usually newbies that are not yet comfortable carrying and insecure about getting made carrying. I could care less if they see my gun while carrying on my body as long as I have made conscious efforts to properly conceal it. If the wind blows my shirt open or I bend over and they figure out it is a gun butt under my shirt, no biggie. That is not illegal and I will address it if the police are called. No different that police being called in open carry states for someone with a pistol on their hip. Still not illegal, but it happens.

EXACTLY!!!

[Beiruty]

So what is up with the exception of discharging a firearm on public road?

[mamabearCali]

[quote="Keith B"
The problem is, it DIDN'T happen in a remote area, it happened in a CROWDED OFFICE.

And, those that are concerned about printing are usually newbies that are not yet comfortable carrying and insecure about getting made carrying. I could care less if they see my gun while carrying on my body as long as I have made conscious efforts to properly conceal it. If the wind blows my shirt open or I bend over and they figure out it is a gun butt under my shirt, no biggie. That is not illegal and I will address it if the police are called. No different that police being called in open carry states for someone with a pistol on their hip. Still not illegal, but it happens.[/quote]

Then if the office people are so upset they can call the cops themselves. If they are not that upset about it, then fix the hole and move on.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

Go right ahead then. As for me, I am not a police officer. It is not my job to report everything that happens around me to the officials. I don't live in a world where I tattle to the cops every time I see someone do something illegal/stupid. Now if someone was actually hurt or being hurt--ok--now I have a responsibility as a human being to do something.

I find it odd that you are very willing to stand with (apparent) current TX law and take a man's ability to defend his family for something as simple as showing his weapon to his friend (setting aside the ND as you did), or even the ND as it was a mistake and no one was hurt. You are quite ok with making him vulnerable to the criminal elements of society (and by those I mean the ones that actually want to do serious harm)--to the point of saying he should be reported and charged if he has not been so. I hope you find people more merciful to you, if you should ever prove to be human.

It has absolutely nothing to do with being a LEO or tattling as you put it but reporting a crime. Had he done this in Wal-Mart or a restaurant he would have been reported immediately by multiple people.

How is the law that I quoted "(apparent) current TX law"? It is the current TX law and it is there for a reason and he deliberately disobeyed it. If he wanted to show it to his friend there are legal places to do so (range, home).

I am not the one that would make him "vulnerable to the criminal elements of society" as I am not the one that made him break the law. He used is very own bad judgement and did that so he is the one that would make him "vulnerable to the criminal elements of society".

And absolutely NOWHERE did I claim that I do not make mistakes.

You are asking that one who broke the law not be punished because it was a mistake or he was ignorant of the law. Ignorance of the law is not a defense to prosecution and if one was to not be accountable for breaking the law because it was a mistake we would have a TON of mistakes being committed every day.

Your stance is to pick and choose who is held accountable to the laws set in place for everyone. Hmmm, where have I heard and seen this practiced before?

[mamabearCali]

[quote="DONT TREAD ON ]You stance is to pick and choose who is held accountable to the laws set in place for everyone. Hmmm, where have I heard and seen this practiced before?[/quote]

And your stance is to appoint yourself as a LEO (and insist the everyone else do the same) and report whatever you see to the authorities with no thought to common sense or what you or I see as right and wrong. Hmmmm where have I heard and seen this practiced before?

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

[quote="DONT TREAD ON ]You stance is to pick and choose who is held accountable to the laws set in place for everyone. Hmmm, where have I heard and seen this practiced before?

And your stance is to appoint yourself as a LEO (and insist the everyone else do the same) and report whatever you see to the authorities with no thought to common sense or what you or I see as right and wrong. Hmmmm where have I heard and seen this practiced before?[/quote][/quote]

Please show me where I appoint myself to a LEO? I think you will be very hard pressed to show me this as it does not exist.

Thought to common sense does not apply as he DELIBERATELY BROKE THE LAW regarding the carrying of a concealed handgun under authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code. It is VERY VERY VERY clear in what you cannot do. He did one of those things by INTENTIONALLY FAILING TO CONCEAL THE GUN.

Common sense would be to not break that law if one wishes to retain his CHL.

As for right and wrong, is it right or wrong to break the law?

[mamabearCali]

You have said that he should be reported to the police by a fellow citizen--and indicated that you would do so because he broke the law, and thus enforce the law or at least do your darndest to see the law enforced. I don't see it as my job to act as a LEO (a law enforcement officer), if you were in that office and you felt that the situation was egregious enough to call the cops, go ahead. As it stands now, the story I am told, I am not sure I would if the bullet hit the ground and not anyone else. I sure would not call the cops if all I say was him show his weapon to his friend--which is also apparently against the law in TX. There are a million things in this country that are "against the law" like I said before if someone is being hurt or has been hurt I will get on my phone and call the police, if a serious felony is occurring I will call the cops. I am not calling the police for every jay walker I see nor every hunter I know of that bagged the wrong sex deer. If they want to go after those or the people who show their friends guns they will have to do that without my help.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

You have said that he should be reported to the police by a fellow citizen--and indicated that you would do so because he broke the law, and thus enforce the law or at least do your darndest to see the law enforced. I don't see it as my job to act as a LEO (a law enforcement officer), if you were in that office and you felt that the situation was egregious enough to call the cops, go ahead. As it stands now, the story I am told, I am not sure I would if the bullet hit the ground and not anyone else. I sure would not call the cops if all I say was him show his weapon to his friend--which is also apparently against the law in TX. There are a million things in this country that are "against the law" like I said before if someone is being hurt or has been hurt I will get on my phone and call the police, if a serious felony is occurring I will call the cops. I am not calling the police for every jay walker I see nor every hunter I know of that bagged the wrong sex deer. If they want to go after those or the people who show their friends guns they will have to do that without my help.

You are reaching quite a bit on this. One who reports an incident such as this is in NO way acting as a LEO as they are NOT enforcing anything but reporting. Again a HUGE difference. You seem to be one that picks and chooses which laws are enforceable. Unfortunately for you this could come back to haunt you as most LEO and DA's do not think this way.

Bottom line as I have stated over and over again. He broke the laws that are relevant to carrying a concealed handgun in the state of Texas and needs to be held accountable.

[canvasbck]

Don't tread on me.........your advocating turning this guy in for intentionally failing to conceal. Should we also turn in everyone on this board who commented on the selling a firearm face to face thread? Many people there suggested that they have met a prospective buyer in a public place to exchange the money for the firearm. What this guy did was no more criminal than that. As a matter of fact.........I confess, I met a guy in a town square to purchase my FNP9.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

Don't tread on me.........your advocating turning this guy in for intentionally failing to conceal. Should we also turn in everyone on this board who commented on the selling a firearm face to face thread? Many people there suggested that they have met a prospective buyer in a public place to exchange the money for the firearm. What this guy did was no more criminal than that. As a matter of fact.........I confess, I met a guy in a town square to purchase my FNP9.

This is also not a good comparison. You are missing a key part of the law.

(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

Those of you who are meeting to sell your guns in a public place are not carrying them under the authority of your CHL. Also, you are showing them inside a vehicle or such and NOT blatantly exposing them to the public.

[¿Qué?]

As a side note--that showing an unloaded firearm to a friend in a private office place is a Class A misdemeanor is INSANE! You guys need to work harder on your gun laws there. You have a great castle law, but your laws concerning printing/open carry are nuts.

You're right. Imagine if some state made people take a 10 hour class and pay $140 fee to get a Concealed Cross license if they want to war a crucifix outside their home or church. Imagine if some state charged you with a misdemeanor and revoked your Concealed Cross license if you displayed your crucifix in public, including at work.

If you can imagine all that, now try to imagine if that state claimed they're pro-Cristian and the Concealed Cross laws are a reasonable restriction on citizens' rights.

[The Annoyed Man]

I believe you are misinterpreting the "concealed means concealed". It means if it is properly concealed nobody will know it is a gun and therefore one has nothing to worry about.

Again, there are NO laws in regards to printing.

The DA in each district decides whether to prosecute someone--not the VA statutes. That is where the discretion comes into play. Also the DA has to know something happened to prosecute--there are many places in VA that are very remote and a ND won't likely even get a call to the police.

Then what are yall so worried about if printing is not a problem.....Sorry I have been here and seen in several threatds several people drill into people's head BE CONCEALED! BE VERY CONCEALED! So I don't buy it that yall aren't worried about printing.

With all due respect, you are completely misunderstanding this issue from the standpoint of Texas law.

On this board, when you see someone say "concealed is concealed," that means nothing more or less than if you keep your gun concealed (and your mouth shut), nobody will know about your gun—regardless of the circumstances in question. We do not have a law against printing in Texas. Literally. There is no law against printing. What we DO have is a law against INTENTIONAL failure to conceal. When you open carry, that is "intentional failure to conceal." When you draw your weapon to show it off to friends, that is "intentional failure to conceal." When you draw your weapon in self defense, that is a defense to prosecution for intentionally failing to conceal your weapon. When you're showing off to your friends, you don't have that defense to prosecution.

When you are "printing," there is no way in most cases that the observer can know what the object is that is printing under that shirt. It has to rise to the level of being readily discernible (like, able to read the logo on the slide through the fabric) as a firearm. So if you wore your full sized 5" 1911 underneath a skin-tight UnderArmor shirt, such that the casual observer could tell if it was a Springfield and not a Kimber, that would probably rise to the level of intentional failure to conceal.

However, if the wind blows your shirt up, momentarily exposing your firearm for anyone to see, and you immediately make attempts to cover it up, that is NOT intentional failure to conceal.

So, in the case of the person who negligently fired the pistol, the pistol's owner was definitely guilty of intentional failure to conceal, as the events did not occur in the privacy of his own home.

Believe me, most of us are not worried about printing. In fact, concerns about printing are commonly raised by n00bs who are brand new to carrying, and the most common advice they get is, "strap it on, cover it up, and forget about it." Most respondents will tell the concerned individual there is no way for a casual observer to know whether the object under the shirt is a pistol, an insulin pump, a cellphone, or a colostomy bag. So, you have VERY much misread the tone of this board in that regard.

[mamabearCali]

Bottom line as I have stated over and over again. He broke the laws that are relevant to carrying a concealed handgun in the state of Texas and needs to be held accountable.

Like I said, when you screw up, and possibly even run afoul of the law may someone be kinder and more merciful to you than you are willing to show here.

[mamabearCali]

With all due respect, you are completely misunderstanding this issue from the standpoint of Texas law.

On this board, when you see someone say "concealed is concealed," that means nothing more or less than if you keep your gun concealed (and your mouth shut), nobody will know about your gun—regardless of the circumstances in question. We do not have a law against printing in Texas. Literally. There is no law against printing. What we DO have is a law against INTENTIONAL failure to conceal. When you open carry, that is "intentional failure to conceal." When you draw your weapon to show it off to friends, that is "intentional failure to conceal." When you draw your weapon in self defense, that is a defense to prosecution for intentionally failing to conceal your weapon. When you're showing off to your friends, you don't have that defense to prosecution.

When you are "printing," there is no way in most cases that the observer can know what the object is that is printing under that shirt. It has to rise to the level of being readily discernible (like, able to read the logo on the slide through the fabric) as a firearm. So if you wore your full sized 5" 1911 underneath a skin-tight UnderArmor shirt, such that the casual observer could tell if it was a Springfield and not a Kimber, that would probably rise to the level of intentional failure to conceal.

However, if the wind blows your shirt up, momentarily exposing your firearm for anyone to see, and you immediately make attempts to cover it up, that is NOT intentional failure to conceal.

So, in the case of the person who negligently fired the pistol, the pistol's owner was definitely guilty of intentional failure to conceal, as the events did not occur in the privacy of his own home.

Believe me, most of us are not worried about printing. In fact, concerns about printing are commonly raised by n00bs who are brand new to carrying, and the most common advice they get is, "strap it on, cover it up, and forget about it." Most respondents will tell the concerned individual there is no way for a casual observer to know whether the object under the shirt is a pistol, an insulin pump, a cellphone, or a colostomy bag. So, you have VERY much misread the tone of this board in that regard.

I am glad you are not so worried about it. I do however think that a class A misdemeanor and loss of a CHL because you show your friend your gun is pretty insane. I have checked and it is not even a crime in my state at all as long as you are not pointing it at anyone or threatening anyone with it.