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Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:13 am
by Hoi Polloi
Purplehood wrote:
Hoi Polloi wrote:
XtremeDuty.45 wrote:
bdickens wrote:Forbidding a person from satisfying one of his most basic physical and psychological needs is cruel and inhuman - therefore immoral.
No one is forbidding them from anything. They just cannot do it openly.
And no one is forcing them to volunteer, either.
I get the distinct impression that you would prefer they didn't. I don't mean this as any sort of direct attack, but I think that anyone that wants to serve should be able to.
Follow the UCMJ and you can't go wrong.
That post was not making any sort of statement about who should or shouldn't be in the military. It was only responding to the point of being immoral and inhuman to forbid people from an action. It is not being inhuman for them to volunteer for an organization which they know has rules they do not wish to live by. It makes no statement on wanting to try to change those rules so that they could enter without conflicting with what they value.

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:14 am
by The Annoyed Man
Ropin wrote:Sure, you can say the 'just hide it.' I can tell you, though...it will wear a person down, having to hide and lie like that.
Ropin, believe me, I do understand. I experience a similar exhaustion with my family back in California when I find myself playing down my conservatism and my Christian faith just in order to get along when I'm surrounded by people whom I otherwise love, but who are for the most part hostile to the principles of my faith and the principles of my politics.

It does wear a person down. I think I speak for many when I say that the big issue isn't whether or not we can get along with others who are different from us - and that includes within the context of military service - whether "different" means race, or sexual orientation, or politics, or whatever. The real issue is having our noses rubbed in the expression of that difference, whatever form "different" takes.

For example, over the weekend, gubernatorial candidate Bill White marched in a gay pride parade. Now, I confess that I am not familiar with gay pride parades, Texas style, but I have seen plenty of what passes for gay pride parades in California. It is one thing to say "this is who I am; deal with it." It is quite another thing to ask "how does my naked butt look in these chaps?" It's not the "gayness" that is so offensive, it is the unseemly behavior of a significant number of people who show up for these events. Contrast, if we want to use the black civil rights movement of the 1960s as a metaphor, the way in which Martin Luther King led that movement, and the behavior he expected from its leadership and its followers, and the way in which Bobby Seale and Huey P. Newton led the Black Panther Party, and the behavior of their leadership and followers - which was essentially separatist and predatory.

On the one hand, you had a group that advocated unbending principle tempered by rectitude in personal behavior, and on the other hand, you had a militant group that advocated unbending principle and encouraged any behavior to achieve it - including armed robbery, drug dealing, bombing, and murder. Which group is judged more harshly by history today? Which group was the most effective at achieving its aims? I submit that it was Martin Luther King that history judges favorably, and Bobby Seale and Huey P. Newton that have been relegated to history's dustbin.

Four years ago, Nancy Pelosi marched in a gay pride parade in San Francisco, right in the front row. Right next to her, marching together with her, was the head of NAMBLA - the North American Man Boy Love Association. To millions of Americans, by marching alongside this man who represents a significant threat to their children's physical safety, she was endorsing what he stands for. Well, I can't help what Nancy Pelosi does. She's an idiotic harridan, and everyone in her own party outside of the district that keeps reelecting her knows it. But, ask yourself the following 2 questions: 1) "What damage did Nancy Pelosi do to the cause of gaining general acceptance of homosexuals by the general population by marching alongside an advocate for sexual predation agains minors;" and 2) "What damage did the organizers of that particular gay pride parade do to the cause of acceptance by allowing the head of an organization that advocates sexual predation agains minors to march at the head of its parade?" For extra credit, answer this one: "Can't the guy in the chaps at least have the decency to wear a pair of boxers or whitey-tighties under those chaps, or does he have no decency?"

Those are very valid questions, and they speak to the issue of rubbing the noses of everyone who does not belong to the aggrieved minority in behavior that is guaranteed to work against acceptance instead of in favor of it. Militancy in social politics will never succeed because it offends the sensibilities of the majority. MLK, on the other hand, was successful (even though it cost him his life) because he spoke to issues of justice, fair play, equal rights, and common human decency. I believe that gay friends who have met me in person or who have known me for any length of time - and in at least a couple of cases who have been in Bible study with me - understand that I do not sit in judgement of them. My pastor says, and I internalize this and own it, that we are all just messed up people trying to move forward. So, for whatever my advice is worth, my counsel to gay activists would be to abandon overt behavior which is offensive; do not sanction or tolerate it in others such as NAMBLA and do not make common cause with them; and keep the policy discussion focused on justice, fair play, equal rights, and common human decency.

Does what I wrote make sense to you?

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:34 am
by Purplehood
It does to me TAM, and I apologize to Hoi Polloi for misinterpreting her remarks.

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:12 am
by b322da
XtremeDuty.45 wrote: If you want to serve, great. Just follow the standards and do it quietly, if you are gay. If you want to be open about it don't serve as it is against the standards and no one is forcing you to do it.
With respect, just what "standards" are referred to here? The standards which are in force are the UCMJ and, as of now, DADT. The proposed legislation, in my opinion, opens the door to the standards again being the UCMJ and, in my humble opinion, lawful orders which may go beyond the UCMJ with respect to acts rather than thoughts. That is, simply being homosexual, and nothing else, no showing of adverse effect upon such as morale, discipline or mission accomplishment would not be grounds, in and of itself, for preventing an otherwise fine soldier from serving his or her country in uniform.

I read Purplehood's comment as being just that, short and sweet, as is his fashion, and as is typically the fashion of competent senior NCOs, and those are the guys and gals who really keep the armed forces working, contrary to the delusions of many a 2nd Lieutenant or Ensign.

Major Witt's case. BTW, have we all noted that the Air Force eventually gave her an honorable discharge? I will not publicly state my speculation as to why it did, as it would be just that -- speculation.

Certainly it is not suggested that these vague "standards" include personal prejudices of individuals with respect to simply serving with a person who may be homosexual without him or her flaunting it through his or her acts.

I suspect we may be in agreement here, and that I, as is often my fashion, read too much into things I read. If so, I beg forgiveness, and can only say that my training causes me to often misread something.

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:36 am
by bdickens
Hoi Polloi wrote:And no one is forcing them to volunteer, either.
Nor is anyone letting them.

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:05 pm
by bdickens
920. ART. 120. RAPE AND CARNAL KNOWLEDGE
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife, by force and without consent, is guilty of rape and shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
(b) Any person subject to this chapter who, under circumstances not amounting to rape, commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife who has not attained the age of sixteen years, is guilty of carnal knowledge and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
(c) Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete either of these offenses.


One can choose to rape someone or not . One can not choose to be gay or not.
925. ART. 125. SODOMY
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration , however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense.
(b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


Do they ever really enforce that? Can they? If they did, a substantial portion of married servicemembers would be coming up on the docket. And just what is the definition of "unnatural carnal copulation " anyway?
933. ART. 133. CONDUCT UNBECOMING AN OFFICER AND A GENTLEMAN
Any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman who is convicted of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
934. ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.


I am still waiting for an explanation as to how - aside from bald-faced prejudice - a homosexual engaging in consensual homosexual activity with another adult is considered "conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman," prejudicial to the "good order and discipline in the armed forces" or brings "discredit upon the armed forces" unless they are doing it out on the parade field.

What there is is a straight-up double standard. If you are gay, you have to be a monk and pray no one finds out. And if you are straight: well hey, the red-light district is that way. *Nudge, nudge. Wink wink.* Have a good time!

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:30 pm
by psijac
This thread has gone on for a long time.

To clear up any confusion. I support gays openly serving in the military. I am against the stupid arguments and political posturing thrown out there to achieve that goal.

The only valid argument for gays openly serving is that they are capable of doing the job and booting them for only being homosexual is stupid.

Arguement: 1 Unconstitutional

Free speech and religion is protected under the first amendment. But consequences are not. Look at General McChrystal. He was promptly fired when he used this ring and it was perfectly constitutional to do so.

The court ruling also said this violated 5th amendments rights. Which doesn't make sense. The military is demanding you use your 5th it's not taking it away from you. In a bigger sense you should be able to choose to use or not use your rights. However people also have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Two states list suicide as crimes and physician assisted suicide is legal in only two states.

Argument: 2 Military doesn't have the right to mandate your sex life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Flinn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Argument: 3 A repeal won't affect the troop moral in a negative way

That is literally an impossible thing to say. Every thing affects moral in a negative was. Rain, snow, sunshine. There will always be something to kill moral. Service is a roller coaster incredible highs and damning lows. You could spend all day shooting a full auto belt feed weapon. Now you get to spend all evening cleaning off 1000 rounds worth of carbon with an AP brush.

Argument: 4 Discrimination is bad people need to suck it up

Yes it is bad. But forcing some one to give up their prejudices, possibly under fire is also bad. You cannot force someone to your way of thinking and expect them to act rationally. That is why gay re-education camps are so unsuccessful.

Society is moving to a place where gays serving in a military is okay even if gay marriage is not. And yes it will be a difficult and complicated thing for the military to do and in the beginning it will be a damn mess.

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:40 pm
by The Annoyed Man
Just to inject a little humor....

I could accept gays in the military so long as there were none of this:
Image

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:16 pm
by b322da
The Annoyed Man wrote:Just to inject a little humor....

I could accept gays in the military so long as there were none of this:
Image
Goodness, TAM. We should support our troops. This is obviously the combat uniform of the day for the well-dressed USMC sniper in Afghanistan. :lol:

Elmo

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:18 pm
by juggernaut
bdickens wrote:One can not choose to be gay or not.
Maybe you can't choose your sexual preferences, but you can control your behavior. In that sense, it's no different than ephebophilia, voyeurism, zoophilia, necrophilia, transvestism, dendrophilia, etc.

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:19 pm
by i8godzilla
Some updated news about the matter.....................

:headscratch http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD9ICC2PG0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:boxing http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/p ... itary.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:00 pm
by b322da
BREAKING NEWS -

"Senate Democrats fail to break a Republican filibuster of a defense authorization bill that also would have allowed the repeal of the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, which prohibits openly gay men and women from serving in the armed forces. The bill was defeated on a largely party-line vote, 56-43, as Democrats failed to find a single GOP senator to agree to open debate on the bill. The filibuster ends what gay rights advocates had believed was their best hope of nixing the 17-year-old policy." (POLITICO.com, 9/21/2010)

Recognize, however, that Major Witt's case, and others, still pend in the courts.

Elmo

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:06 pm
by cling
If the facts posted on Maj. Witt's case are correct, it's like someone getting a speeding ticket when they weren't speeding, so the judge may rule speed limits unconstitutional.

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:29 pm
by b322da
cling wrote:If the facts posted on Maj. Witt's case are correct, it's like someone getting a speeding ticket when they weren't speeding, so the judge may rule speed limits unconstitutional.
With respect, I would suggest that it is more like a judge ruling that it is not contstitutional to punish someone for speeding when they weren't speeding. ;-)

Elmo

Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:34 pm
by The Annoyed Man
b322da wrote:Goodness, TAM. We should support our troops. This is obviously the combat uniform of the day for the well-dressed USMC sniper in Afghanistan. :lol:

Elmo
It's not the uniform so much as it is the Twyla Tharp choreography. :mrgreen: