Traffic Stop Backup

[baboon]

I work a part-time seasonal job @ the Texas Renaissance Festival. From that job I have alot of contact with the various LEO that work the festival part-time as well. Do to the amount of money that I handle on that job I am always armed. I would not hesitate to come to anyone of those officers aid.

The reality is we are responsible for are own safety. I do not think a cop getting in over their own heads is a smart cop. I think you would be putting yourself in danger.

[ScubaSigGuy]

The problem here (the big city) is what happens when backup arrives and it is not immediately clear to them who the bad guy is...especially if the officer is hurt.

It's a situation that could end very badly.


That being said if I was travelling alone and saw an officer in obvious distress I would try to help. If my wife is with me then that's a much more difficult decision.

[boomerang]

It depends on the situation and the location.

If I'm not legal to carry, I will call 911 and keep going.

If I am legally carrying, it depends. If the cop is on the ground getting stomped, I'll stop to help.

If it's just a struggle and I don't know the officer personally, I don't want to do anything that would make that cop think I'm a bad guy. I definitely don't want to get shot by another cop who pulls up 60 seconds after I stop and sees me with a gun.

[Mike1951]

Still, it could happen:

Officer Down: Corporal Bruce McKay - [Franconia, New Hampshire]

ODMP

Biographical Info

Age: 48

Additional Info: Corporal McKay had served with the Franconia Police Department for 12 years.

Cause of Death: Gunfire

Incident Details: Corporal Bruce McKay was shot and killed during a motor vehicle stop.

Corporal McKay pulled over a suspect for speeding on Route 116. The suspect then fled in his vehicle, leading the officer on a brief pursuit. The officer pulled his cruiser in front of the suspect's vehicle, forcing him off the road. Corporal McKay then used pepper spray on the suspect while attempting to take him into custody. After being pepper sprayed, the suspect produced a handgun and shot the officer four times, killing him. The suspect then ran over the officer.

A civilian witnessed the incident and pulled his vehicle between the suspect's vehicle and Corporal McKay, in an effort to shield him. The civilian, a former United States Marine, then exited his vehicle and rushed to the officer's aid. He grabbed Corporal McKay's gun, while his son called for help on Corporal McKay's radio. The civilian then ordered the suspect to drop his weapon. When the suspect refused, the civilian shot and killed the suspect.

Date of Incident: May 11, 2007

I've been trying to recall an incident from the 1990's. It seems like it was west of Houston and maybe a DPS trooper. Very similar to above in that citizen sees the officer shot, shoots the BG with the officer's gun, and radios for assistance. Quite possibly even before CHL.

Anyone else remember?

[casingpoint]

Anyone else remember?

Yes. It was quite a few years ago up around Dallas, as I recall Paul Harvey talking about the incident. A passing motorist saw a traffic stop suspect shoot and kill a DPS trooper. The guy pulled over on the shoulder of the road, took out a deer rifle and killed the suspect before he could flee. I think Harvey was a little set back, as he commented to the effect, "Only in Texas."

There should be some degree of legal immunity for those who assist an LEO, for obvious reasons. Something akin to the castle doctrine. Here in Louisiana, you must respond if an LEO summons you for assistance, but the law provides no relief from legal action later by any involved party, including the cop.

Anyway, some New Jersey cops took my gun away from me once after I reported a break in, threw me in the clink and charged me with possession, so until they give it back, I'm a little leery of lending a hand. Besides, I'm not trained to subdue a suspect. I think choke holds are not allowed. But they sure do subdue a suspect.

[srothstein]

Obviously, I have a slightly different outlook on this. Of course I would stop and help if I saw an officer in trouble.

But, I have to admit that I have made a habit of slowing down when I see an officer alone on a traffic stop. Not stopping, but looking to make sure he is okay as I go by.

I know of several documented instances where citizens saved officers lives when they got in trouble. One case that sticks out in my mind is a San Antonio officer who was a rookie riding with her FTO straight from the academy. They handled a disturbance call and the guy had beat the girl up badly, then left to go to Chili's across the street. The officer was taking the report and heard that the suspect was in Chili's and said she would get him. Her FTO told her to wait until he finished the report but she went over anyway. The suspect obviously was not afraid of a woman, not even one in uniform. When she told him to step outside, the fight was on. He got her gun from her and then six or seven guys who were just eating in the restaurant jumped on him and got it back and got him subdued.

We need the citizen's help and we cannot do our jobs without their support. Sometimes the support is physical, sometimes financial, and sometimes just moral, but we need support.

The reality is we are responsible for are own safety. I do not think a cop getting in over their own heads is a smart cop. I think you would be putting yourself in danger.

Sometimes, my job just requires me to put myself in over my head and in danger. I know it, but it is the job I took and swore to do. In those cases, all you do is pray that you can hold on long enough to let backup arrive. Most cops I know will not work with an officer who gets a reputation for playing it safe and not handling the calls that put him in danger until backup is there. We cannot allow the citizens to wait. When I worked in Luling, there were many nights when I was the only officer on duty in town and the nearest backup was a good 20 miles or more away. In San Antonio, they teach a 4 minute response from the time you call for help (officer in trouble) until there is someone there. I can hold on in 99.9% of the cases that long. In rural areas, the danger is not as frequent, but the response time approaches 30 minutes from the officer in trouble call. And if someone is doing something, you cannot wait that long. The citizens deserve better from you than always waiting for backup.

EDIT: Rereading this, I think I may have sounded a little harsh. It was not meant that way and definitely not at you. I apologize for that. Cops who want safe jobs is one of those buttons for me, I guess. I am not complaining and I knew what the job involved when I took it. I expect other cops to behave the same way.

[silver x0ne]

Someone walking up behind me while I'm wrestling someone would make me even more nervous... It seems like a catch 22, you could potentially help but at the same time you could put the officer in a bad position. I personally wouldn't hesitate to help anyone but you really have to look at the situation and see what good you are really going to do. It is unfortunate but like it has been mentioned, you gain a mindset of not trusting anyone but someone with a badge. All I can say is think before you act.

[KBCraig]

Someone walking up behind me while I'm wrestling someone would make me even more nervous... It seems like a catch 22, you could potentially help but at the same time you could put the officer in a bad position.

Step One: "Officer! Do you want my help?"

Step Two depends on the response. If he becomes unable to respond, you then have implied consent to help.

[KBCraig]

Still, it could happen:

Officer Down: Corporal Bruce McKay - [Franconia, New Hampshire]

...

A civilian witnessed the incident and pulled his vehicle between the suspect's vehicle and Corporal McKay, in an effort to shield him. The civilian, a former United States Marine, then exited his vehicle and rushed to the officer's aid. He grabbed Corporal McKay's gun, while his son called for help on Corporal McKay's radio. The civilian then ordered the suspect to drop his weapon. When the suspect refused, the civilian shot and killed the suspect.

Sadly, this is not a good incident to cite. There are a whole lot of ugly details that have been withheld, but which are now starting to surface due to the tenacity of a lawyer-turned-blogger named Christopher King.

You can google the details, but here's short version: Cpl. McKay's personnel record shows that he had a serious anger management problem. Liko Kenney wasn't the only one with a problem; other citizens obtained restraining orders against McKay due to his repeated hostile actions.

The "hero" of the day, Gregory Floyd, is anything but. He's widely claimed to have been Force Recon in Vietnam, when he was actually assigned to Headquarters staff at Camp Lejune -- from 1976-79! He was AWOL twice and discharged without receiving any awards or decorations, and never served overseas. He's also a three-time felon.

So, I don't want to sidetrack this thread, just trying to point out that things aren't always what they seem. In the McKay/Kenney/Floyd case, none of the three were righteous.

[Mike1951]

Hindsight is 20/20, but I consider all you posted irrelevent.

Did the officer need assistance? Yes!

Did he not deserve assistance because of his past? Hardly!

Did the civilian shoot McKay's murderer? Yes

And did his son use the officer's radio to call for help?

Nothing outside of these circumstances matter at all!!

Should a background check be required of every good Samaritan before they are allowed to assist?

[Shoot_First]

A while back in West Orange, after shopping at Wally World, I was headed home when a city LEO lit up a car a block in front of my truck. One of the car passengers bailed on foot. The LEO was occupied detaining the three other car occupants. I made a slight right turn across the curb and grass to reach the service road in chase of the runner. At the same time, another truck headed in the opposite direction turned behind the police car and paralled me in the pursuit of the BG. The BG made a couple of turns around buildings and made a feeble attempt to scale a six foot wood fence just as I was closing behind him. He then bolted left and started across an open field trying to get away but with a truck rolling slowly on either side of him he stopped in a grass area after running about 300 yards or so and was clearly out of breath. A responding backup LEO's car skidded to a stop behind our trucks, but between us. The LEO jumped out of his car and at a run tackle flattened the BG to the ground. It does not pay to run from the cops!! After the BG was cuffed, I asked the LEO now sitting on the BG's back if he was "good to go." He said "thanks for the help" and both of us citizens in trucks left the matter for the LEOs to handle. As I got back to the service road, police cars were arriving from every direction. I pointed out my window to the location where the BG was being hefted to his feet. I noted as I passed the LEO who made the initial stop that he had the other three BGs in flex-cuffs head down across the hood of his car. He waved with a "thumbs up" as I passed by his car. At no time during my involvement did I ever consider using either of my two Kimber 1911s because the BG did not display a weapon or make any threat to me... he was just trying to get away from the cops. I also did not have to flash my CHL badge either... because I DON'T HAVE ONE!

Did I (and the other citizen who joined in the BG chase) do the right thing? If not, what would you have done?

[sailormanCGA72]

Recently I was driving through the fairly desolate ranch land in South Texas when a DPS trooper pulled in front of me and stopped a pickup. I saw only two occupants in the pickup, but when the driver pulled over there were at least six people who jumped out on both sides and started running for the tall cactus. I considered stopping to help for about a half a second. Illegal alians were not worth getting torn up on barbed wired and cactus. Actually it was sort of comical because the trooper didn't know which one to chase first. This doesn't really fit the original question but I thought it was funny.

I would stop and render assistance if I thought the officer was in extremis.

[legend]

I would stop to help a LEO if they looked like they needed it though, providing I was confident it wouldn't put my wife or baby in danger....

[Kerbouchard]

I always slow down if there is a traffic stop in progress. After all, it's the law. If while slowing down I saw a LEO involved in a struggle or in need of help, I would absolutely stop. The post above about yelling "Officer, do you need assistance?" is probably the best one I have read on this thread. From there, my actions would depend on his response, or lack thereof, but it would serve three purposes.
1. I could possibly gain more info about what is going on.
2. I would have identified myself to the officer, and he would know that assistance is available.
3. The BG would know somebody else was on the scene, and that he had more to worry about than just the officer.

For those that said they would always help, I would like to mention one thing. A police uniform can be rented for about 30 bucks at your local costume shop, and lights can be bought over the internet for a few hundred bucks. There is no way to actually know what is going on if you are coming into a situation after it has started. There are several documented cases of a BG impersonating an officer and pulling people over to rob them.

Be careful about diving into the pool before you know how deep it is.

[sailor2000]

So, there you are, Cop A has was beat up, you have stopped and have the Bad Guy at gunpoint while Cop A is laying unconcious on the ground. This is when the backup that Cop A called for, Cop B, arrives.

Could be a very touchy situation.