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Kinda wish someone would change the topic title... this was not a "gun show".

Anyway, my kids fear the recoil of a .22. They have to get their nerve up quite a but to shoot a 9mm pistol. They are adult-sized 12 and 15 year olds. I can't imagine any reason that any responsible person (parent or not) would allow an 8 year old to handle, much less shoot, a 9mm machine gun. But I didn't grow up in the gun culture where parents buy their daughter a .22 rifle while she is still in the womb and take their 5 year old sons deer hunting, so clearly I am not representative of the common opinion about what age is right to introduce kids to guns like this. 8 year old boys, IMHO, should be doing BB gun target shooting, not machine guns and pumpkins.

mr.72 wrote:Kinda wish someone would change the topic title... this was not a "gun show".

Anyway, my kids fear the recoil of a .22. They have to get their nerve up quite a but to shoot a 9mm pistol. They are adult-sized 12 and 15 year olds. I can't imagine any reason that any responsible person (parent or not) would allow an 8 year old to handle, much less shoot, a 9mm machine gun. But I didn't grow up in the gun culture where parents buy their daughter a .22 rifle while she is still in the womb and take their 5 year old sons deer hunting, so clearly I am not representative of the common opinion about what age is right to introduce kids to guns like this. 8 year old boys, IMHO, should be doing BB gun target shooting, not machine guns and pumpkins.

I think most on here agree that this was NOT the thing to be doing for an 8 year old. But age is not an only factor.

I was not brought up in the extremist gun culture either. My father was a NRA Safe Hunting Instructor and a Scoutmaster, but not a heavily active gun enthusiast. We had guns in the home, but were taught they were not toys and were not to be played with.

My first gun was a BB gun at age 7, and at age 8 I joined a Junior Rifle Team where we shot .22's. It was sponsored by our local police department and ran by the Chief and the Lt. that was their firearms instructor. It taught gun safety and we always had a GREAT time!

My next gun was not a ,22, but a .410 bolt action at age 10. I had learned how to safely handle a firearm, and was 'rewarded' with that gun. Dad and I went and hunted together and enjoyed the friendship. From there it progressed on over the years, but not with my Dad as he had become ill and incapable of walking much. During my teen years, I shot on an NRA Junior Rifle team and worked my way up to Distinguished Expert. During that time I also learned to shoot pistols.

At age 18, I became a reserve police officer and a member of the police pistol team, shooting in PPC and (for fun) bowling pin matches. During that time, I was exposed to my first fully automatic weapon and was required to go through a 6 hour 'ground school' before even being allowed to handle the firearm.

So, long story short, there were many things in this error chain that caused the death of the young boy. Age was a factor, but there were others. It is a sad situation, but it is what it is and we need to learn from it. Exposing anyone to firearms requires a full understanding of both the potential of the firearm, as well as the capabilities of the shooter to handle it, no matter what age. Anything less is total negligence and irresponsible.

this is a sad and terrible thing. there is NO reason that this should have happened. by the time I was eight I had been shooting for a few years but I we NO where near ready to shoot an UZI. the first time I ever shot it was a .22 on a .22/410 over under...which i still have to this day. The second time I ever pulled the trigger it was the 410. talk about scared. thought my dad put in a .22...I was wrong. its a family tradition though my grandpa did it to my dad dad did it to me and ill do it to my kids....all on the same gun. Im not sure what the dad was thinking here trying to take pics or vids but i think he should have been paying more attention to his child. as for the instructor...i feel he should be stripped of his license. he should have been paying more attention and close enough to where is something like this were to happen he could have stopped it before it got to this point. I pray for EVERYONE involved...childs soul, parents and instructor as the last two have to live with their sad and poor decisions for the rest of their lives.

KBCraig wrote:What a horrible thing for everyone involved.

Uzi recoil is negligible, even for many 8 year olds (but certainly not all).

Muzzle rise alone can't account for this tragedy. The shoulder stock also had to slip out of place; even a small, short SMG can have too long a pull for an 8 year old.

The Uzi has a grip safety. You can't fire it while trying to turn loose of it.

I know I've cautioned against speculation in other threads, but in trying to figure out how this could have happened, I speculate that the boy lifted his head away from the recoil, letting the buttstock drop, while trying to hang on to the grip (keeping the safety depressed), and the gun pivoted right around his hand until he was shot.

How to assign blame? Wow. I wouldn't blame a parent who knows little or nothing about firearms, if that was the case. I definitely wouldn't absolve a "safety expert" who didn't keep hands on the kid. There might be more blame for both, depending on their experience and actions at the time.

Terrible thing.

Meanwhile in neighboring NH, a fundraising MG shoot went off without a hitch:
http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx ... e10f541930" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would agree that the semi auto Uzi is pretty easy to handle. However, I have fired full auto Uzi's in law enforcement settings and I wouldn't call their recoil "negligible." Neither did most of the Secret Service folks I shot with. It's clearly significant and requires adult strength and proper technique to keep the muzzle pointed where it belongs. I have no trouble at all understanding why this would be well beyond the capabilities of an 8 year old child, and how muzzle rise could easily and foreseeably cause the result it did here.

While I am not generally inclined throw someone under the bus when life is so complex and unusual situations present unusual challenges, this case merits an exception. I would classify putting a weapon of this type into the unassisted hands of a child as criminal negligence compounded by gross stupidity.

A non-gunny (very liberal) friend mentioned this incident in conversation today. I started my commentary with "I'm not specifically opposed to an 8-year-old shooting an Uzi..." and got an immediate "WHAT?!". I went on to explain that I think it's very foolish and negligent to have a child that young shoot a gun like that without adult assistance and with a full magazine of ammo. I don't know what these people expected to happen when they hand a young child an Uzi full of ammo and step back to videotape it.

This is very disappointing and saddening.

HighVelocity wrote:Thanks for the video link. I was mentally prepared for a barrage of anti-gun sentiment but for a primetime news report, it was very unbiased and not anti-gun at all imho.

Edited to add: I cringe at the thought of what Nacy Grace is going to do when she gets hold of this story.

Why were you surprised? It was Fox news and they don't have a reputation for being particularly gun unfriendly. Most folks don't lump Fox News with MSM at all.

Liberty wrote:

HighVelocity wrote:Thanks for the video link. I was mentally prepared for a barrage of anti-gun sentiment but for a primetime news report, it was very unbiased and not anti-gun at all imho.

Edited to add: I cringe at the thought of what Nacy Grace is going to do when she gets hold of this story.

Why were you surprised? It was Fox news and they don't have a reputation for being particularly gun unfriendly. Most folks don't lump Fox News with MSM at all.

Yes, I've been disappointed with much of what I have seen from Fox....with one notable exception: Meagan Kelly seems to be a staunch supporter of gun rights and WILL come down hard on anyone spewing the anti's rhetoric.

Atta Girl!

I recall a neighbor taking me to a range when I was around 8 years old (1984ish). I do not recall what rifle I was allowed to shoot (prob a .22), but the adults that were there had larger rifles that they were shooting. When I was shooting I rememebr looking over one stall and saw someone shooting a full auto AK-47 (prob why I have liked them most of my life, and why I own one as of recently... SA of course). I remember clear as day asking about shooting a gun like that, to which everyone there denied me the opportunity with several reasons such as "that gun is too much for you to handle". I can remember being slightly sadened, but I was still happy to be there in the first place. I remember shooting extremely well for my first time out.

Unfortunantly this scenario went the other way. It does make me wonder if I was allowed to shoot that AK47...

Sad indeed.

The owner of the gun club and two other men involved in this incident have been indicted for involuntary manslaughter.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6121915&page=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

I love this part from the DA:

Bennett said, noting the weapon has a rate of fire of 1,700 round per minute. "It is not a hunting weapon."

-Cain

Latest development. Video of boy's death to be shown to jury.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/08/us/08 ... odayspaper" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Elmo

Did this thread get resurrected from the dead in the spirit of Christmas?

If we are going to follow a legal action through the courts, threads are going to run for years. Heller was in the works for over five years.

It is rare for a felony prosecution to be resolved in less than two years, unless the defendant agrees to a plea bargain without a trial.

I have pointed out several cases where the trial took place thirty or forty years after the alleged criminal action.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:If we are going to follow a legal action through the courts, threads are going to run for years. Heller was in the works for over five years.

It is rare for a felony prosecution to be resolved in less than two years, unless the defendant agrees to a plea bargain without a trial.

I have pointed out several cases where the trial took place thirty or forty years after the alleged criminal action.

- Jim

Methinks someone didn't get my joke.

I guess that's why I'm not a comedian.

The former police chief who organized this shoot is now on trial for involuntary manslaughter.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/region ... 6&srvc=rss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(I guess the authorities in Massachusetts don't take care of their own, or maybe the police chief became inconvenient. This would not happen in Las Vegas or Chicago.)

- Jim