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The Annoyed Man wrote:

Purplehood wrote:Not to sound cliche, but carrying in the 12 o'clock is sooo stereotypical of any gang-banger that you see in the movies.

I don't blame the clerk for his reaction one bit (please do not consider that a personal attack).

Also, please don't consider this a personal attack either, but I've seen enough dudes with self-inflicted holes shot in their "wedding tackle" that I'll never carry a gun in that position so long as I live.
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What kind of wedding is it where you use what is at 12 O'Clock??

I would never carry at 12 because you cannot get to it when you are on the ground or pressed up against something, nor can you see what is going on back there and its easy for someone to trap your arm behind you from any direction. And when you move for your pistol, it takes a lot longer and its a major revealer of your intentions.

Nothing beats AIWB at 2 o'clock.

Excaliber wrote:I also agree with The Annoyed Man - 12 o'clock is a common stickup artist's carry position and an uncommon choice for lawfully armed folks, except in some special circumstances. Four o'clock carry would have prevented the entire situation in this case, and would give the OP a far better chance of being able to continue to enjoy his "wedding tackle" in its original and fully functional condition for years to come.

AIWB is the best carry position for many, many reasons and recognizes the reality of the fight.

The draw from AIWB ( Appendix Inside the Waist Band ) is the fastest concealed draw there is and allows the draw to occur from sitting, standing, grappling, or being knocked to the ground. It allows one to protect the pistol very easily and it is the easiest to conceal. The pistol and holster does not get hooked on stuff when moving around objects. Most people will miss it when they start a body search.

The reason thugs and professional hitmen do it is because their lives are on the line and they have tested what works and have made the correct decision.

Most people carry at 4 or 9 because that is what the holsters are made for or they are carry too much of a spare tire for it to be comfortable, rather than having thought through and tested the various scenarios. In this respect, they are behind the thugs.

I carry an XD45 AIWB with no holster most of the time. I know quite a few others who do this no holster or with a holster. Some are LEOs.

austin wrote: What kind of wedding is it where you use what is at 12 O'Clock??

I would never carry at 12 because you cannot get to it when you are on the ground or pressed up against something, nor can you see what is going on back there and its easy for someone to trap your arm behind you from any direction. And when you move for your pistol, it takes a lot longer and its a major revealer of your intentions.

Twelve o'clock is generally understood as straight ahead, and 6 o'clock as straight to the rear - hence the expression "check six" alerts one to look out for something behind him. Two o'clock would be the appendix carry position.

austin wrote:

Excaliber wrote:I also agree with The Annoyed Man - 12 o'clock is a common stickup artist's carry position and an uncommon choice for lawfully armed folks, except in some special circumstances. Four o'clock carry would have prevented the entire situation in this case, and would give the OP a far better chance of being able to continue to enjoy his "wedding tackle" in its original and fully functional condition for years to come.

AIWB is the best carry position for many, many reasons and recognizes the reality of the fight.

The draw from AIWB ( Appendix Inside the Waist Band ) is the fastest concealed draw there is and allows the draw to occur from sitting, standing, grappling, or being knocked to the ground. It allows one to protect the pistol very easily and it is the easiest to conceal. The pistol and holster does not get hooked on stuff when moving around objects. Most people will miss it when they start a body search.

The reason thugs and professional hitmen do it is because their lives are on the line and they have tested what works and have made the correct decision.

Most people carry at 4 or 9 because that is what the holsters are made for or they are carry too much of a spare tire for it to be comfortable, rather than having thought through and tested the various scenarios. In this respect, they are behind the thugs.

I carry an XD45 AIWB with no holster most of the time. I know quite a few others who do this no holster or with a holster. Some are LEOs.

There are many factors to be considered when selecting one's carry method and position for any given circumstance, and body build is certainly one of the major ones.

While there are many different choices made by folks for a wide variety of reasons (some well thought out and some less so), the vast majority of armed professionals find their optimal carry position somewhere between 4 o'clock and 5 o'clock for right handers and between 7 o'clock and 8 o'clock for left handers. That's why so many holsters are designed for this type of wear - the market responds to the demand.

Holsterless carry has been fairly thoroughly discussed in other threads. For reasons well covered in those discussions, it is not generally considered the mark of a thoughtful and experienced armed professional, with the exception that it is sometimes a "blending in" requirement for certain types of undercover law enforcement work. I wouldn't go so far as to say it should never be done, but in most circumstances the minuses outweigh the pluses.

Several issues here. Not concealing properly, possibility of the clerk shooting first, a felony stop that could have gotten you shot from an unanticipated move, and an adrenalin fueled police throwdown because you are carrying a small arsenal (what exactly were you expecting to run into anyways?). I note in your early posts you just got your CHL in the past couple months, you hang at a biker bar where you want to be able to carry, and now you report that the police felony proned you out and found multiple weapons in your car?! Are you looking for a fight? Not trying to flame you (I will get it I am sure), but something ain't right here.

I carry multiple weapons in my car and think nothing of it. A shotgun and an extra pistol AT A MINIMUM.

austin wrote:I carry an XD45 AIWB with no holster most of the time. I know quite a few others who do this no holster or with a holster. Some are LEOs.

I recall another thread where you described this practice, including how you had tested yourself to make sure that you could do summersaults and other such physical moves without the gun becoming dislodged. You were also a little dismissive in that thread about people who are in less than tip top physical condition. I also pointed out to you in that thread that I have personal experience in an ER setting, treating men who will no longer be able to enjoy their wedding tackle in original mint, LNIB, condition because they carry the way you do.

You know, if you want to take that risk, go 'head on, brother. But I can tell you that in the case of every single other accidentally self-inflicted gunshot wounds I ever saw involving the carrying of a pistol, only one of them happened to someone using a holster, whereas I personally saw half a dozen who shot themselves inside the front of their pants, while engaged in such physical activities as burglary, gang-bangin', breakin' 'n enterin', jumping out of windows, etc. I think it is also fairly safe to say that these individuals no longer carry in that particular manner either. Once burned, twice shy, if you know what I mean.

Speaking strictly from my real life experience (unlike your theory), you may have certain tactical advantages carrying the way you do, but you are also definitely a statistic waiting to happen. For my own part, I don't go where I think I may need to throw down a summersault during an attack. It might mean that I don't get to roam the "spicier" parts of town, maybe, but it also means that I survive with my dignity intact. I have no desire to join BWTA (Busted Wedding Tackle Anonymous). Not even remotely.

Russell wrote:You sure did take it a lot better than I would have.

I assure you I would not have been shaking their hands after being slammed to the ground, handcuffed, and thrown in the back of a squad car.

Glad it worked out for you.

Ditto.
JL

Well, I look up and the clerk sees my pistol right as I notice it and reach up and grab my shirt to cover it back up. He looks at me with a weird look on his face, I buy my coke and thank him and nothing else is said. I go out to my truck and proceed to eat my yummy tacos. Well about 5 minutes later I notice that he is closing his doors and locking up. I thought it was weird because it was only 6pm and he left his "open" sign on. I don't think much of it and continue eating. 5 minutes later I here something outside my truck.

So you were made by the clerk, and you sat outside his store for at least 10 minutes?

Personally, I would have high-tailed it out of there as quickly as possible, and not looked back.

But hey, I've gotta hand it to you, it took some guts to post this story!

Under the circumstances described, it may have been worthwhile to consider apologizing for the unintentional flash and identifying oneself as a CHL holder to alleviate the clerk's justifiable concern.

Excaliber, I am smart enough to have considered doing this at the time. However, I thought there was a small chance he didnt actually see it. I did not want to take the risk of making him aware of my pistol if he didnt really make eye contact with it. He was looking kinda at my face at the same time. I felt it best not to discuss it by drawing attention to it.

From a situational awareness perspective, if one's first clue that there are multiple police vehicles and officers present and focused on you is a bright light and a pistol next to one's head, it might be a good time to review how one maintains awareness of his surroundings, particularly in known insecure locations.

I do take a little offense to this statement as you dont know how I was sitting, where my vehicle was or how silent the officers were when they arrived. For the record, I was pulled into a parking space with 2 cars on each side of me. The police officers left their cruiser headlights off, no sirens of course. They crept up on me quietly from behind. One second they were not there, the next second I see their flashlights and pistols. I am always very aware of my surroundings. Its easy for people to judge another individuals situation when they were not even there. Its easy to say what you "would have done" or what you "normally do".

From a strategic standpoint, if a neighborhood is known to be dicey, eating fast food in one's car in a convenience store parking lot with doors unlocked is an invitation to robbery or carjacking.

I do agree with that, but thats why I am strapped.

I also agree with The Annoyed Man - 12 o'clock is a common stickup artist's carry position and an uncommon choice for lawfully armed folks, except in some special circumstances. Four o'clock carry would have prevented the entire situation in this case, and would give the OP a far better chance of being able to continue to enjoy his "wedding tackle" in its original and fully functional condition for years to come.

I carry in that particular positon with that pistol only. I carry in other positions depending on what I am wearing and what pistol I have. I feel like I can carry in whatever position I choose. I dont care if gangbangers or stickup artists carry that way. I could care less what people do in the movies. I do what makes me feel comfortable and safe. Looking back on it I wouldnt change anything about the whole situation. Being curteous to the officers is important to me because I know a few FWPD. They are friends. I know some said they would not have been so nice about it. The officers were being very cordial after they found out I was a CHL, so why not return the favor?

I disagree, I think the police way overreacted. anymore than 2 cars is seriously unneeded. I would definitely file a complaint and possibly file something on the clerk. He was scared so you get cuffed and hassled? Over the last year or so the members of this board have gotten way too easygoing on our rights being violated. IMO as soon as you stated you had a chl and they ran it you should have been apologized to and let go and never have had multiple guns pointed at you.

newlife12176 wrote: I do agree with that, but thats why I am strapped.

Never do anything armed that you wouldnt do unarmed. If you carry so that you can put yourself in more dangerous situations then someday someone will put that to the test for you. I dont know about you, but thats a test I hope I never have to take. Someone is going to fail and there is a 50% chance it will be me.


Something about your post just feels wrong though, it strikes me as made up, at least in some areas of the story - if not the whole thing.

The police, espically in Texas and other shall-issue states need to remember that just because someone has a gun doesn't mean they are planning to use it for evil.

We'll never get the public believing that if the police don't.

Never do anything armed that you wouldnt do unarmed. If you carry so that you can put yourself in more dangerous situations then someday someone will put that to the test for you. I dont know about you, but thats a test I hope I never have to take. Someone is going to fail and there is a 50% chance it will be me.


Something about your post just feels wrong though, it strikes me as made up, at least in some areas of the story - if not the whole thing.

Whatever. I can assure you its not made up. I dont come to this forum to tell stories. Maybe you feel its made up because I told the police I had my S&W 9mm 5906 tactical in my briefcase, but in reality I just said, "there is another pistol in my briefcase". Just wanted the readers to know what I was carrying instead of explaining it. Oh well, I have nothing to prove. Just thought I'd share a personal experience so people would know how things happen sometimes. Thanks to everyone who DIDNT criticize me or call me a liar. Maybe I'll think twice about posting in this forum next time. Furthermore, I dont place myself in situations that put me in dangerous positions whether armed or unarmed. I was agreeing with the poster who said that sitting in my car with the doors unlocked in a bad neighborhood was not the brightest of ideas, however in case something did happen as a result, I am glad I would be armed.

For those of you who say carrying at the 12 o'clock position is unwise, do you still have that opinion for people who use the Smart Carry, which is used to carry in the 12 o'clock position.

Personally, I carry in the 11 o'clock position, IWB, because my body type does not allow me to carry any other way that is comfortable or that will allow me to easily conceal - I'm petite, with hips that force the grip of my pistol to protrude outwards. The position I carry in is my choice, and it works very well for me. Who cares what some thugs do, and I really doubt that the store clerk even thought about the position of where the OP was carrying his weapon, he had already been robbed recently, he saw a gun, and got scared.


Newlife, from my perspective, I think you handled the situation very well. The police were doing their jobs. They received a call about a guy carrying a gun into a place that has already been robbed, so they had to respond. If they had not responded and there were an actual robbery taking place, everyone would be crying why the police didn't bother to show up.