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Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:15 am
by Excaliber
WarHawk-AVG wrote:The Annoyed Man wrote:Steve, I'm glad that everything worked out OK in the end that you neither got hurt, nor had to shoot someone. I suspect you probably handled it as well as you could, given the circumstances.
Normally I wouldn't advocate leaving your car, but I toss this out there as an idea... If you had left your car, it would have A) given you some tactical maneuvering room; and B) drawn the other guy's attention away from your car (with your wife and child inside), and toward you, in case he was armed. At that point, you could give some pretty aggressive body language - hand on gun, etc. - and convince him to back off.
Analyzing it from my inexperienced viewpoint, the car affords you and your family some protection, but not nearly enough. On the downside, being trapped inside the car limits your ability to get to your gun, to draw it, and to aim and fire it without obstructions like steering wheel and windshield in the way. OTH, if you exit the vehicle but keep behind the cover of the open door, you still have some protection, you have increased mobility options, and you can always jump back into the car if you have to.
I am curious as to what some of our more tactically experienced members like Excaliber or others would say.
I disagree (in my opinion)...exiting your vehicle would have been and could be construed as escalating the situation...rolling down the window and telling the guy to back off was the trigger point...further aggression or advancement on his vehicle then would have been the aggressive attacker and saved him...getting out of the car would have been seen as you stepping up to the challenge. Plus in case of emergency...a quick shift and a flooring of the gas pedal puts much more distance between an attacker and you...even if you had to shove his vehicle out of the way. A vehicle is by far cover...but it beats standing out in the open.
I am glad it all worked out and the situation defused itself...fortunate for that guy he knew not to advance on a vehicle after initiating a confrontation...doing so can and usually ends badly
Warhawk-AVG makes some good points here. Getting out of the vehicle has two major issues:
1. If things escalated, it could be construed as mutually agreed combat, which knocks out a justification defense for use of
deadly force.
2. Inside your car you are well covered by the Castle Doctrine. If the aggressor attempts to get to you in there, you
are protected by the legal presumption that he intends to do you harm and deadly force is justified. Outside you car you are
not.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:41 am
by Purplehood
I think you took the right actions. I tend to agree with the remark that the seat-belt should have been undone, but in the heat of the moment it probably would not have occured to me either.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:00 am
by The Annoyed Man
Excaliber wrote:Warhawk-AVG makes some good points here. Getting out of the vehicle has two major issues:
1. If things escalated, it could be construed as mutually agreed combat, which knocks out a justification defense for use of
deadly force.
2. Inside your car you are well covered by the Castle Doctrine. If the aggressor attempts to get to you in there, you
are protected by the legal presumption that he intends to do you harm and deadly force is justified. Outside you car you are
not.
Yeah, I had really mixed feelings about the idea. I realized after I wrote that, that I was coming from the point of view of a left handed shooter. That doesn't negate what you say, but being left handed, with my gun holstered on my left, it requires that I lean away from the door to get access to my weapon. That would considerably slow down my reaction time to the threat if drawing the gun were necessary. OTH, if I store the weapon elsewhere in the car while I'm driving, then I have to re-holster it before exiting the car. My concern is that, since I would have to lean away from the door to re-holster the gun, it is an exaggerated movement that might attract undue attention from others outside the car, possibly giving away what I am doing. Perhaps the solution is to keep a second pistol in the car when I'm driving, but then I have to worry about securing it when I'm not in the car. That is one of the reasons I won't go in a 30.06 posted business - the fact that I have to leave a gun in the car where it can be stolen.
I'm curious if other left handed CHLers have the same concerns I do.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:31 am
by CHLSteve
Although I've never had the chance to practice drawing and firing while seated in a car, I felt like I was in a pretty good position. Leaning forward towards the side-view mirror gave me full access to my holstered weapon. My hand was completely around the handle, and I could have easily drawn.
Also, this guy didn't put himself in a good position (surprise) by using any of his natural cover--the back of his truck or the front of my car would have made it much more difficult to get a good shot at him. As it was, the guy was at a perfect angle for me had I drawn.
I've replayed the situation 100's of times now in my head, and I am satisfied with the outcome. You guys have provided, once again, some valuable insight as to how I can improve the situation next time--or avoid it completely.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:32 am
by KC5AV
The Annoyed Man wrote:Yeah, I had really mixed feelings about the idea. I realized after I wrote that, that I was coming from the point of view of a left handed shooter. That doesn't negate what you say, but being left handed, with my gun holstered on my left, it requires that I lean away from the door to get access to my weapon. That would considerably slow down my reaction time to the threat if drawing the gun were necessary. OTH, if I store the weapon elsewhere in the car while I'm driving, then I have to re-holster it before exiting the car. My concern is that, since I would have to lean away from the door to re-holster the gun, it is an exaggerated movement that might attract undue attention from others outside the car, possibly giving away what I am doing. Perhaps the solution is to keep a second pistol in the car when I'm driving, but then I have to worry about securing it when I'm not in the car. That is one of the reasons I won't go in a 30.06 posted business - the fact that I have to leave a gun in the car where it can be stolen.
I'm curious if other left handed CHLers have the same concerns I do.
That is something I've thought about a lot. I haven't found a good solution yet.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:38 am
by jiannichan
CHLSteve: That was a good read and I would have to agree with most here that you did well. I am glad no one got hurt and everyone went on their way safely.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:46 pm
by Excaliber
KC5AV wrote:The Annoyed Man wrote:Yeah, I had really mixed feelings about the idea. I realized after I wrote that, that I was coming from the point of view of a left handed shooter. That doesn't negate what you say, but being left handed, with my gun holstered on my left, it requires that I lean away from the door to get access to my weapon. That would considerably slow down my reaction time to the threat if drawing the gun were necessary. OTH, if I store the weapon elsewhere in the car while I'm driving, then I have to re-holster it before exiting the car. My concern is that, since I would have to lean away from the door to re-holster the gun, it is an exaggerated movement that might attract undue attention from others outside the car, possibly giving away what I am doing. Perhaps the solution is to keep a second pistol in the car when I'm driving, but then I have to worry about securing it when I'm not in the car. That is one of the reasons I won't go in a 30.06 posted business - the fact that I have to leave a gun in the car where it can be stolen.
I'm curious if other left handed CHLers have the same concerns I do.
That is something I've thought about a lot. I haven't found a good solution yet.
I'm not left handed so I haven't given this a lot of thought before, but both KC5AV and The Annoyed Man bring up an issue worthy of some serious consideration for the 20% of us whose strong side is on the left.
One possible solution I can think of is to wear a low profile slide holster on the opposite side and position it for cross draw when seated in the vehicle. It would then be accessible to the strong hand without a visible giveaway from outside. Returning it to the primary left side holster before exiting the vehicle could be done with the right hand to once again avoid the exaggerated motion that might reveal what's actually happening.
What do you southpaws think of that solution?
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:55 pm
by Locksmith
. .
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:23 pm
by KD5NRH
Locksmith wrote:In this scenario the news story will instead say: "BREAKING NEWS: Angry "road raged" aggressor blocks a family in on their way home from church, and get out and attempts to attack the driver" "The potential victim driver swiftly shot the attacker and stopped him cold before he could harm him or his family" Officers familiar with the case expect no charges to be filed, Texans have a legal right to defend themselves and their families"
Or "Out of control legislature protecting psychotic religious fanatics."
This *is* the media we're talking about here.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:44 pm
by CHLSteve
Locksmith wrote:...under the castle doctrine you have every right to shoot and kill, if he is trying to get into your space (your vehicle) or get you out...
Scott, although the castle doctrine didn't enter my mind during the incident, that is a very good point. I did feel that getting out of my car might have been perceived as an aggressive move on my part like, "yeah, let's fight". The only thing I wanted was for that guy to leave us alone.
Also, I didn't know if more than one guy was going to get out of the truck, and I could have found myself quickly surrounded, outnumbered, and even outgunned. In the car, I could at least have driven off--crashing though other cars, yards, etc... to get away if necessary. I wanted to stay close to protect my wife and kid.
I practiced dry-fire drills today with a fellow CHL'er, and we recreated the scene in his driveway to see how the angles would play out with shooting from the car. It gives me a lot to think about regarding keeping your gun accessible at all times, even when driving in a "safe neighborhood" in the safe environment of your own car.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:06 am
by TacShot
Thank you all for one of the better educational threads. I personally gained a lot in this one.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:00 pm
by The Annoyed Man
Excaliber wrote:ccessible to the strong hand without a visible giveaway from outside. Returning it to the primary left side holster before exiting the vehicle could be done with the right hand to once again avoid the exaggerated motion that might reveal what's actually happening.
What do you southpaws think of that solution?
It sounds like it would work - until it came time to return the pistol to my strong side holster. You've seen my build. I don't think I can reach that far with my right arm!
OTH, once I'm stopped before exiting the car, I can leisurely return the pistol to my strong side holster when no one is watching. And if that is the case, then maybe I need to get one of those holsters that attaches to the front of the car seat, instead of wearing a belt slide on the weak side.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:42 am
by Excaliber
The Annoyed Man wrote:Excaliber wrote:ccessible to the strong hand without a visible giveaway from outside. Returning it to the primary left side holster before exiting the vehicle could be done with the right hand to once again avoid the exaggerated motion that might reveal what's actually happening.
What do you southpaws think of that solution?
It sounds like it would work - until it came time to return the pistol to my strong side holster. You've seen my build. I don't think I can reach that far with my right arm!
OTH, once I'm stopped before exiting the car, I can leisurely return the pistol to my strong side holster when no one is watching. And if that is the case, then maybe I need to get one of those holsters that attaches to the front of the car seat, instead of wearing a belt slide on the weak side.
That might be an even better solution for you.
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:00 pm
by dewayneward
As a lefty, this post (and so many others) hase made me think how I would handle a situation while sitting in my truck. If I could get the BG to come over the other side and roll the window down for me, it would be a big help.
Seriously, I mentally worked through drawing from my left side, which isnt a bid deal, but look like a dork trying to aim the thing. It would be impossible to fire through a closed window on my left using my left hand. If the window was down, some libby lawyer would say that I was asking for trouble because I had my window down or something.
Maybe I can retorfit my truck to let me drive on the right side...
Re: Almost had to draw and shoot some fool tonight--kinda long
Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:37 pm
by KD5NRH
dewayneward wrote:Maybe I can retorfit my truck to let me drive on the right side...
It's not that hard to find right-drive cars. I've often wondered why more rural postal carriers don't get them instead of the rather screwy arrangements they often have to convert left-drive cars to dual-drive.
They're usually cheap in the used car listings, too.