Open carry on personal property?

[Oldgringo]

....I just try to stay off the radar.

- Jim

Well said and good advice on this and certain other questionable situations posed on the TexasCHLforum, IMHO.

[SlowDave]

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[SlowDave]

There is an offense that you won't find in the criminal code of any state, called annoying the cops. Committing this offense often leads to another undefined offense, which is assaulting the officer's flashlight with your forehead. This leads in turn to the real crime of resisting arrest.

Please consider the long history of people who exercised their civil rights and ended up in jail or the morgue, from Rosa Parks through Amadou Diallo.

Or consider the history of Harris County prosecuting UCW charges against people who carried handguns in vehicles from 2005 through 2007 (they do seem to have gotten the memo).

This is the way that it is, maybe not so much in Montgomery County, if that is where you live, but very much in the cities. I don't like it, but I don't know what to do to change it. I just try to stay off the radar.

- Jim

I'm gonna have to go with MB guy on this one. If it weren't for folks like Rosa Parks taking one for the team, we'd all be stripped of all rights. I don't go around provoking just for the sport of it, and wouldn't take the other poster's approach of "OC'ing to educate" while carrying the pertinent code with me, but I also won't go around trying to not ever cross paths with a LEO for fear that he might beat me down for pissing him off. I think there's a broad spectrum here, but I'm not quite as far on the safe side as you on this one Jim. If others fought and died for these rights, at least I can undertake a certain level of risk with a LEO to make sure they are maintained in practice in my neighborhood.

Other factors may be affecting my opinion right now though. More on that later.

[seamusTX]

SlowDave, I admire those who put themselves on the line to fight for principle, but I think we have to choose our battles.

Rosa Parks didn't simply decide one day that she wasn't going to take it any longer (though she has said that). She was a member of the NAACP and an activist before she was arrested for not giving up her seat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RKBA supporters could learn a lot from the strategies of civil rights groups from the 1940s through the 60s. They had detailed plans for reclaiming their rights. When the time came for demonstrations or civil disobedience, they knew the right time and place to get maximum effect.

And don't forget that many of them ended up in jail or the morgue.

If I can summarize the principle that I'm stating here, it is to act with allies and a strategy, not simply to hurl yourself into the jaws of the beast.

- Jim

[Oldgringo]

SlowDave, I admire those who put themselves on the line to fight for principle, but I think we have to choose our battles.

Rosa Parks didn't simply decide one day that she wasn't going to take it any longer (though she has said that). She was a member of the NAACP and an activist before she was arrested for not giving up her seat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RKBA supporters could learn a lot from the strategies of civil rights groups from the 1940s through the 60s. They had detailed plans for reclaiming their rights. When the time came for demonstrations or civil disobedience, they knew the right time and place to get maximum effect.

And don't forget that many of them ended up in jail or the morgue.

If I can summarize the principle that I'm stating here, it is to act with allies and a strategy, not simply to hurl yourself into the jaws of the beast.

- Jim

Once again , well said and good advice. It's kinda' like, "winning the battle but losing the war".

[seamusTX]

Thanks.

People are going to disagree on these issues, and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Another lesson from the civil rights struggle is that the most militant and vocal rebels made little if any progress. Marcus Garvey was sentenced to prison on a charge that is generally consider trumped-up now. Malcolm X was assassinated. H. Rapp Brown and many Black Panthers did not come to good ends. Stokely Charmichael became an expatriot.

In the end, polite men and women in suits prevailed in public opinion, the courts, Congress, and the legislatures.

- Jim

[MBGuy]

I guess some places are more way far gone than we are in Austin County. I've spoken with others here and they know for a fact that open carry on your own property is allowed and that LEOs know it. Property rights are king here in Texas and I would think that most LEOs would know that, and along with that, you shouldn't have to conceal on your own property. Even if they don't like it or don't know better, ending up beaten in a cell or in a morgue would be a bit overkill for just OCing on your own property. I might be wrong (I guess I am), but I just don't see even HCSO giving property owners that much grief when cutting their grass or taking out the trash while OCing.

On a related note, Gonzalez Louisiana's PD lost a lawsuit (or rather, settled out of court promptly) with someone that was excercising his public OC rights in Gonzalez at a store. Not even he got a beating, and this is Louisiana we're talking about. He just got arrested and his firearm taken from him. If OC'ing on your own property in Texas gets you beaten down, lawsuit time just the same. I don't think it's a very hard and/or extreme battle to win/loose when the code that allows it is not in a gray zone, it's very black and white in the PC. Even when talking about "taking a ride" on the issue of using our CHL on city property when it's erroneously posted 30.06, court costs are what's being discussed as the cost, not your own life or health. OCing on your own property isn't any more in a gray area of the law than 30.06 being invalid on city owned property that doesn't have courtrooms is. And if you're always allowed to request for a supervisor, wouldn't he know that OC'ing is allowed on your own property or property under your control?

While I agree that courts are the place to wage battles, this "allowance" is already allowed in our code. It's the public's ignorance and maybe some LEO's ignorance that is the battle. You can't fight that until you actually practice your right and legally allowed action of OC'ing on your own property (or even "property under your control", which would be even grayer in my opinion).

One day when I win the lottery, I'll be the test case........

[seamusTX]

I couldn't have told where Austin County is until I looked it up just now. I agree that you are less likely to have problems in a rural county like that.

There are ways to resolve these issues without being cuffed and thrown into a stinky, lice-ridden cell. You can write letters to the police chief, DA, and city council to clarify their positions.

If you have the money to spend, or if you are a lawyer, you can file a motion for an injunction against things like 30.06 signs on government buildings. That is what was done in Houston.

- Jim

[nitrogen]

If I lived in the city I'd have the applicable PC printed out and nearby

People need to understand that some LEOs really, really dislike this kind of thing, and someone who tries it might wake up in jail with a headache.

I don't like the situation, but that is the way that it is.

- Jim

I don't care what a LEO dislikes.
If a LEO put me in jail, after he was pointed that conduct was not illegal, I'd be filing charges, calling the TV stations and the ACLU, GOA and NRA.

"Staying off the radar" allows your rights to be infringed even more.

[seamusTX]

I don't see the TV networks or ACLU (of which I am a member) being too friendly to "gun nuts." I also don't see the RKBA organizations defending people at the trial court level. They are inclined to become involved at the appeals level.

I have worked my entire adult life to amass a very minor fortune, and I'm not going to throw it away to be found not guilty in a case that would be characterized in the media as a gun nut going off the deep end.

I also am not photogenic. I look like an old doper-hippie-redneck, and I look much worse on camera than in person for some reason.

- Jim

[Oldgringo]

I don't see the TV networks or ACLU (of which I am a member) being too friendly to "gun nuts." I also don't see the RKBA organizations defending people at the trial court level. They are inclined to become involved at the appeals level.

I have worked my entire adult life to amass a very minor fortune, and I'm not going to throw it away to be found not guilty in a case that would be characterized in the media as a gun nut going off the deep end.

I also am not photogenic. I look like an old doper-hippie-redneck, and I look much worse on camera than in person for some reason.

- Jim

I'm probably better lookin' than you but I'm not a member of the ACLU. Like you, I will not knowingly throw away our very minor fortune, amassed over three score years, to prove that I'm right on a point that matters not a twit.

BTW, I was there during the Civil Rights movement of the 60's. You are correct about the well mannered folk in the suits. They did overcome.

[nitrogen]

I don't see the TV networks or ACLU (of which I am a member) being too friendly to "gun nuts." I also don't see the RKBA organizations defending people at the trial court level. They are inclined to become involved at the appeals level.

The ACLU usually stays away from pure gun cases (which is rotten) but they absolutely love law enforcement abuse cases; it's part of their bread and butter.

Besides, I guess I'm just one of these weird people that think that if you're doing nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear. I realise I'm a shrinking minority in this country.

[seamusTX]

Besides, I guess I'm just one of these weird people that think that if you're doing nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear.

I honestly don't know how you can say that. How many people have been shot because they had something shiny in their hand, or the police went to the wrong address with a search warrant?

How many people have been truly and sincerely railroaded into prison with false testimony or prejudiced juries?

I mentioned a few earlier in this thread.

- Jim

[SlowDave]

I (he) can honestly say that because I've never met a "bad cop" so far. I think most of them want to enforce the laws. Of course, there are a few that spoil the pie for everyone else, but I'm not going to go around for my life being scared of the big bad LEO. Yeah, I may be in the wrong place with the wrong officer in the wrong mood at the wrong time, and I may get a beating. But I guaranty you that me or my wife and loved ones (if something especially tragic were to happen) will make sure that goes on tv and there will be a barage on the agency at fault. And yes, I'm willing to risk my earthly treasures that moth and rust will destroy for those principles. It's just a few dollars folks. Easy come, easy go. Heck, a bunch of us lost a much bigger pile than we're talking about in the recent stock market downturn, and not for principle one.

And I don't think those suits in the courts and whatever would have won over the public opinion without the public's knowledge of the suffering by those "little people" who stood up for their rights and suffered the (unfair) consequences. IMHO.

[WildBill]

I (he) can honestly say that because I've never met a "bad cop" so far.

I hope you never do.

But I guaranty you that me or my wife and loved ones (if something especially tragic were to happen) will make sure that goes on tv and there will be a hellstorm on the agency at fault. And I don't think those suits in the courts and whatever would have won over the public opinion without the public's knowledge of the suffering by those "little people" who stood up for their rights and suffered the (unfair) consequences. IMHO.

The TV is not interested in the suffering of "the little people" other than a sound bite. Unless you are already a celebrity, the news probably won't even mention it.