srothstein wrote:My whole answer would be based on a single question - the last question in the article. "Is there a compelling reason to allow guns on campus?"
Given that there is no way to stop it for criminals, and given that the schools that do allow it show a perfect safety record, and given that it may or may not help prevent a tragedy, is there a compelling reason to ban guns on campus? Infringing on people's rights should always be the compelling reason, not permitting them. And SCOTUS does say that self-defense is a personal right.
One of the problems I have with this debate is that it is often framed simply in the event of Virginia Tech. While protecting folks from a suicidal madman. The most important reason to allow legal carry is that students are vulnerable to the everyday crimes of car jacking , robbery rape and murder. They need to protect oneself from these things is more likely than a VT experience.
I really don't worry about some madman on a rampage because I realize how statistically improbable that is. When the procampus carry people frame the discussion soley in terms of school shootings they come off as paranoid. The real thing to be talking about are crimes like assault and robbery that DO happen on a regular basis on college campuses.
My comment (that still hasn't been posted) discussed that they didn't even list the qualifications needed and then I listed those (copied and pasted from the students for concealed carry handbook).
Well, I guess if I don't have any negative comments by tomorrow I'll take it to the newspaper office and see if they will put it in as a letter to the editor.
I do believe this is the final version of what I'm submitting.
To be eligible to receive a Concealed Handgun License in Texas one must be over 21 years of age (unless in the military) and have an extremely clean record. There can be no felonies at all or any class A or B misdemeanors at least five years prior to applying. A difficult safety and marksmanship test must also be passed. Many people can not meet these requirements and many more don’t want a CHL. This means that an extremely small minority on campus will have a license.
Texans who conceal carry are generally some of the more responsible members of our society. For instance, male Texans over 21 are “7.7 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder, rape, robbery, and assault than the average male CHL holder” and 18 times more likely to be arrested for committing nonviolent crimes. (txchia.org) When campus concealed carry is allowed we will be no less safe than we were before and there will be no evidence of guns on campus. Concealed means Concealed. I’m sure most of our student body leaves campus at some point in their college career. Chances are if they have ever walked into a Wal-Mart, they have been near someone with a CHL without knowing it. Did they feel any less safe?
A CHL holder is still criminally and financially liable for his or her actions so they have to be very careful to follow the law and keep a cool head on their shoulders at all times. They are taught not to seek out trouble and that they aren’t a hero. A CHL is for immediate defense only and should a Virginia Tech type situation happen during class a CHL holder would follow the professor’s orders, and lock and barricade the door to the classroom. Should the unfortunate happen and direct and immediate threats to their life exist, then and only then, would they act to stop the threat.
TexasComputerDude wrote:I do believe this is the final version of what I'm submitting.
To be eligible to receive a Concealed Handgun License in Texas one must be over 21 years of age (unless in the military) and have an extremely clean record. There can be no felonies at all or any class A or B misdemeanors at least five years prior to applying. A difficult safety and marksmanship test must also be passed. Many people can not meet these requirements and many more don’t want a CHL. This means that an extremely small minority on campus will have a license.
Texans who conceal carry are generally some of the more responsible members of our society. For instance, male Texans over 21 are “7.7 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder, rape, robbery, and assault than the average male CHL holder” and 18 times more likely to be arrested for committing nonviolent crimes. (txchia.org) When campus concealed carry is allowed we will be no less safe than we were before and there will be no evidence of guns on campus. Concealed means Concealed. I’m sure most of our student body leaves campus at some point in their college career. Chances are if they have ever walked into a Wal-Mart, they have been near someone with a CHL without knowing it. Did they feel any less safe?
A CHL holder is still criminally and financially liable for his or her actions so they have to be very careful to follow the law and keep a cool head on their shoulders at all times. They are taught not to seek out trouble and that they aren’t a hero. A CHL is for immediate defense only and should a Virginia Tech type situation happen during class a CHL holder would follow the professor’s orders, and lock and barricade the door to the classroom. Should the unfortunate happen and direct and immediate threats to their life exist, then and only then, would they act to stop the threat.
Suggestions (IMHO):
Don't refer to the Marksmanship test as "difficult". Few fail it. I would simply mention that there is one.
I would also leave out the statement, "DId they feel any less safe?". Referring to emotions is a sure way to raise them.
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If a student with a CHL were to be (lawfully) carrying a concealed firearm on campus, it should matter little to other students and faculty. The fact that the individual in question has even been issued a CHL is proof that you have less to fear from him/her than from your other fellow students.
That person will be of lawful age (21, unless they are also active duty military and can qualify at 18). They will have taken a course and passed a test demonstrating familiarity with the laws. They will have passed a range qualification demonstrating competency with the firearm. They will have passed an FBI background check, including a look into whether or not there are any homeland security issues. They will be a legal resident of the U.S. and of this state. They will have had no felony or Class A or B misdemeanor convictions on their record. They will have had no history of substance abuse or substance dependancy. They will have had no psychiatric adjudications. They will have no record of spousal or child abuse or as a sexual predator. They will have no unpaid back taxes or student loans.
In short, the state of Texas will have determined that this person is a model citizen. In fact, this person will be the least likely to carry a weapon on campus unlawfully because the threat of losing their CHL if caught with a gun on campus is a big enough motivator to make them mindful of the law - so long as the law makes it illegal for a CHL holder to carry on a school campus. How many of your other fellow students do you know for a fact would meet all of these criteria?
On the other hand, no law is going to stop a person from carrying a firearm on campus if that person has criminal intent or is a scoff-law. The only way you are going to prevent that from happening is by installing metal detectors at every entrance to the campus property, and vigilantly controlling access to the campus. If that is the environment in which you wish to attend university, then you are welcome to it.
As a final consideration, college campuses are currently well-publicized "gun free zones." Recent history has shown that this is the favorite environment for mass murderers to ply their trade. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. One student, thoroughly vetted by the state and duly licensed to carry concealed, can put a stop to a mass murderer's activities within those few valuable seconds. Alternatively, the murderer can continue killing innocents for as long as it takes for police to arrive, find the building in which this is happening, break through the doors the killer has chained closed, find the killer, and put the killer down. Through their intransigence regarding the allowing of CHL holders to carry on college campuses, those who are opposed to the idea are also making the declaration that they are perfectly willing to sacrifice dozens of innocent lives so that one student with a thoroughly documented record of obeying the law will not be able to carry his/her weapon on campus.
That strikes me as illogical, and thoroughly unreasonable - a mindset which universities are supposed to purge from their students as opposed to instilling it in them.
That's probably too long, but I don't care.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
smyrna wrote:
Let me see if I can help get you started...
Let's look at her arguments against carry for what they really are.
When I first heard about the idea of allowing concealed carry on campus, my immediate reaction was shock and horror....The idea of SFA suddenly becoming a campus full of gun-toting students is a little discomforting.
This is not really a logical argument at all because....
Looking for logos (logical arguments) in the writing of a college student on the subject of guns is like asking George Bush a trivia question...there will be looonngg pauses. You are much more likely to find pathos (emotional appeals) in an article like this. Alas...that is what we see, and that will be all (usually) the young students understand.
PS I teach argumentation to students on a daily basis...I struggle with this every day
WARNING: The writer tends to use sarcasm - be aware - the ability to easily understand irony, hyperbole, litotes and other elements of satire is required for a thorough understanding.
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thanks for the suggestions, I've edited it down to this:
To be eligible to receive a Concealed Handgun License in Texas one must be over 21 years of age (unless in the military) and have an extremely clean record. There can be no felonies at all or any class A or B misdemeanors at least five years prior to applying. A safety and marksmanship test must also be passed. Many people can not meet these requirements and many more don’t want a CHL. This means that an extremely small minority on campus will have a license.
Texans who conceal carry are generally some of the more responsible members of our society. For instance, male Texans over 21 are “7.7 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder, rape, robbery, and assault than the average male CHL holder” and 18 times more likely to be arrested for committing nonviolent crimes. (txchia.org) When campus concealed carry is allowed we will be no less safe than we were before and there will be no evidence of guns on campus. Concealed means Concealed. I’m sure most of our student body leaves campus at some point in their college career. Chances are if they have ever walked into a Wal-Mart, they have been near someone with a CHL without knowing it.
A CHL holder is still criminally and financially liable for his or her actions and has to be very careful to follow the law and keep a cool head on their shoulders at all times. They are taught not to seek out trouble and that they aren’t a hero. A CHL is for immediate defense only and should a Virginia Tech type situation happen during class a CHL holder would follow the professor’s orders, and lock and barricade the door to the classroom. Should the unfortunate happen and direct and immediate threats to their life exist, then and only then, would they act to stop the threat.
still, if I had more than 300 words I could do better.
smyrna wrote:
Let me see if I can help get you started...
Let's look at her arguments against carry for what they really are.
When I first heard about the idea of allowing concealed carry on campus, my immediate reaction was shock and horror....The idea of SFA suddenly becoming a campus full of gun-toting students is a little discomforting.
This is not really a logical argument at all because....
Looking for logos (logical arguments) in the writing of a college student on the subject of guns is like asking George Bush a trivia question...there will be looonngg pauses. You are much more likely to find pathos (emotional appeals) in an article like this. Alas...that is what we see, and that will be all (usually) the young students understand.
PS I teach argumentation to students on a daily basis...I struggle with this every day
I feel your pain. I really struggle with folks who can only reason emotionally...drives me nuts. I am an analytical thinker and I know I am, but I can be emotional too. I just hate it when people let their emotions cloud good judgement. Hmmm, reminds me of...me when I was 20-something.
I like your reply, Dude. Don't fret that you can't say EVERYTHING you want to and still be within 300 words. I think you are 'spot on', as our English friends like to say.
I think the author of the original article got her final question wrong: 'Is there a compelling reason to allow guns on campus?' Considering our God-given right and responsibility to defend ourselves, along with our constitutionally-guaranteed right to keep and bear arms, she should be asking, 'Is there a compelling reason NOT to allow guns on campus?' For that matter, is there a compelling reason not to allow guns everywhere? Our guns are not the problem, and no one is less safe because we own or carry them. Indeed, we are all safer because we do, even those who do not wish us to have them. Only law-abiding citizens are restricted from carrying on campus, at government meetings, and in establishments posted 30.06.
To paraphrase, 'Where guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.'
I wonder if they will put my letter in the paper. I at least want them to clarify what it takes to conceal carry on campus even if they don't use any of my words. Some of the people I've talked to on campus and off about the article (who are anti's or close) think this bill will allow anyone to carry on campus. Some of them are slightly more open to it when they learn how few of us have a CHL and that we are statistically less likely to commit any violent acts. Some just called me a violent person.
Maybe we should start an e-mail campaign asking them to clarify the requirements for concealed carry and the statistics.
Does anyone know if there are any CHL or gun clubs on campus? I've been looking to get more active in the college community.
