TexasCHLforum.com

Russell wrote:

casingpoint wrote:As far as that little twerp of security guard goes who spoke disrespectfully to the older gentleman, a good female dog slap would be in order.

Your internet toughness would quickly land you in jail if it were transferred to real life.

Most likely on a felony charge, no less; see TX PC 22.01(b)(4)

You would probably have it reduced to a misdemeanor fairly quickly, if he wasn't in a distictive uniform meeting the requirements of 22.01(d), but it ain't going to be pretty in the meantime.

Doug.38PR wrote:^
Oh it was reported. Long story short, they "investigated it" and took the 30 year old security guard's word over the 65 year old man. Then called the 65 year old man up and told him that the security guard said he was bothering people.

I believe this 65 year old man. I have known him 32 years. he does not "bother" people in church. The very most that could have happened was he had his hand in his pocket and flipped his carkeys a little and some nervous busybody church attendee called security "dispatch" and sent Chief Barney to the rescue. In fact, I think that's what the security said, somebody in church called on their cellphone. I have been attending this megachurch for 5 years, it tends attract some...weird attendees who like attention and like to feel important as many megachurches do. BUT, this guard could have handled this a lot more curtious and professional than to talk down to and treat as a troublemaker a 65 year old clean cut man in his sunday best.

Megachurches, are corporations not churches.

If a security guard manhandles you wrongly and without cause for simply refusing to comply with an unlawful command (such as if they tell you to leave when you simply standing there attending church) and you actually succeed in wiping the floor with them restraining them (say you're a navy seal or a green beret...or just tougher than a mall ninja) can you call the police on your cell and have them arrested for assault?

That is why I love God and hate Church. You have been attending this church for 5 years, there must be something keeping you there. Have you seen other times where anything like this has happened? If the pastor did not believe the man and you know the pastor was wrong, I would find another pastor or church. If this is the church I am thinking of, I went once, never went back, it was not for me. The church I am thinking about has 30.06 signs,located in Grapevine and has security.

There are 2 types of Church leaders, Pastors and Preachers (there are those who do both well). If you find a church that provides both you have found a true spriritial leader. Mega churches typically have wonderful preachers, unfortunately in this case the 65 year old guy doesn't have a Pastor.

casingpoint wrote:

If you do not leave, they can use the minimum necessary level of force to make you leave

I seriously doubt that. Is that actually authorized by statute or common law in Texas?

Sure.

PC Sec. 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes that:
(A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;...

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if he enters or remains on or in property, including an aircraft or other vehicle, of another without effective consent or he enters or remains in a building of another without effective consent and he:
...
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.

The bottom line is that if you are on private property that is generally open to the public, such as a church, shopping mall, etc., the owner or an agent of the owner can tell you to leave at any time for any or no reason. If you disagree, you can complain and possibly sue later.

The areas where the property owner or security guard could get in trouble are excluding people because of sex, age, race, national origin, religion, or disability. However, there are exceptions to all these things. Businesses can have upper and lower age limits. Some places (gyms, for example) can be men-only or women-only. Churches can prohibit all but their own members.

- Jim

This 65 year old gentleman and his wife are currently seeking another church. They have been members of this one for about 12 years.
I have seen and heard from friends who are on staff at this church of other equally absurd treatment of people behind the scenes. Megachurches being what they are, they are not the body of christ and they are not the Kingdom of Heaven's court. They are "seeker churches" that only care about bringing in numbers. (which in my view are just entertainment centers to give emotional people emotional experiences devoid of any depth or understanding who the King of Kings is)

BTW, DeadEye1964, no it's not the church you are thinking of. This church as no 30.06 posting. But it does have a private school on campus which is kind of a gray area in the law (I've ask whether or not carrying to church here would be legal and never got a clear answer because nobody was really sure...even my CHL instructor from renewal course a few months ago admitted he didn't know).

The guards at this church are real, most of them have uniforms and are armed. The one I refer to in this post was, according to a witness next to the 65 year old individual, the "head of security" and was in plain clothes. Some of these guards are actually off duty cops.

This event was "investigated" by somebody on staff (after an inquiry as to where the "investigation" went after 2 weeks). In a nutshell, the investigating staff memberl took third and fourth hand information at face value (the complaint that he was bothering people) and accepted the way the security head handled it and came back and told the 65 year old man "well security said you were bothering people."

Having said all I have said here, some of you are wondering why I still go to this church....well...I ask myself that all the time. The ONLY reason I go there, is because they have a large singles department, I have friends there. The singles department I've found over the years is little more than a meet/meat market but there are still plenty of good folks that have a true desire to find a lifemate and make friends. And even that barely keeps me there. Today just coming back from chuch I've even had thoughts of skipping their flock-that-rocks service (contemporary thing that most people my age go to) and just going to Sunday school and lunch afterwards and join friends for events during the week. Plus, there is no point in my finding another church since I'm going to be moving to Louisiana before the year is out (hopefully)

As for resisting the head security guard for grabbing me, that is a hypothetical situation that I would LIKE to happen considering how ticked I am about what happened to this 65 year old individual. But if I were ever approached it probably wouldn't come to that.

Doug.38PR wrote:This 65 year old gentleman and his wife are currently seeking another church. They have been members of this one for about 12 years.
I have seen and heard from friends who are on staff at this church of other equally absurd treatment of people behind the scenes. Megachurches being what they are, they are not the body of christ and they are not the Kingdom of Heaven's court. They are "seeker churches" that only care about bringing in numbers. (which in my view are just entertainment centers to give emotional people emotional experiences devoid of any depth or understanding who the King of Kings is)

BTW, DeadEye1964, no it's not the church you are thinking of. This church as no 30.06 posting. But it does have a private school on campus which is kind of a gray area in the law (I've ask whether or not carrying to church here would be legal and never got a clear answer because nobody was really sure...even my CHL instructor from renewal course a few months ago admitted he didn't know).

The guards at this church are real, most of them have uniforms and are armed. The one I refer to in this post was, according to a witness next to the 65 year old individual, the "head of security" and was in plain clothes. Some of these guards are actually off duty cops.

This event was "investigated" by somebody on staff (after an inquiry as to where the "investigation" went after 2 weeks). In a nutshell, the investigating staff memberl took third and fourth hand information at face value (the complaint that he was bothering people) and accepted the way the security head handled it and came back and told the 65 year old man "well security said you were bothering people."

Having said all I have said here, some of you are wondering why I still go to this church....well...I ask myself that all the time. The ONLY reason I go there, is because they have a large singles department, I have friends there. The singles department I've found over the years is little more than a meet/meat market but there are still plenty of good folks that have a true desire to find a lifemate and make friends. And even that barely keeps me there. Today just coming back from chuch I've even had thoughts of skipping their flock-that-rocks service (contemporary thing that most people my age go to) and just going to Sunday school and lunch afterwards and join friends for events during the week. Plus, there is no point in my finding another church since I'm going to be moving to Louisiana before the year is out (hopefully)

As for resisting the head security guard for grabbing me, that is a hypothetical situation that I would LIKE to happen considering how ticked I am about what happened to this 65 year old individual. But if I were ever approached it probably wouldn't come to that.

There are worse things than being married. Good luck and God Bless with your future decisions.

^
Oh I'm not expecting to find a girl at that church who will want to move "out to the sticks" in Louisiana. But still...I have friends there and I value them

Frost wrote:Assume they have the authority that the owner does and act accordingly. If they are giving you a hard time either appeal to a higher authority or leave the premises. Assaulting them for grabbing you is a really bad idea. Even if you are justified it is likely you will have to prove that to a jury.

Certainly if someone in uniform - or someone who presents me with credentials identifying himself as a sworn LEO, in uniform or out - asks me to leave, I will. But if some non-LEO initiates violence by "grabbing" you, THAT would be the assault; a physical response on your part would be self defense.

Doug.38PR wrote:^
Megachurches, are corporations not churches.

That's kind of a generality, isn't it? Granted, they don't have the same feel as a smaller church, but lots of people are spiritually nourished in mega-churches, and they do, for the most part, contribute to the Kingdom.

DEADEYE1964 wrote:That is why I love God and hate Church. You have been attending this church for 5 years, there must be something keeping you there. Have you seen other times where anything like this has happened? If the pastor did not believe the man and you know the pastor was wrong, I would find another pastor or church. If this is the church I am thinking of, I went once, never went back, it was not for me. The church I am thinking about has 30.06 signs,located in Grapevine and has security.

How big is a "mega-church?" At what point does the size of the congregation cross over into "mega" realm? I know which church you're referring to, and it is not my church. CHL is not a problem at my church. It is located in Grapevine. And, with a congregation in the 1000-1300 range, it is probably less than a tenth of the size of the church to which you referred. In fact, Crossfire and I are working on having a CHL class at my church, and the idea is supported by at least one of the pastors. Give us a try if you like. PM me for details if you wish.

Doug.38PR wrote:If a security guard manhandles you wrongly and without cause for simply refusing to comply with an unlawful command (such as if they tell you to leave when you simply standing there attending church) and you actually succeed in wiping the floor with them restraining them (say you're a navy seal or a green beret...or just tougher than a mall ninja) can you call the police on your cell and have them arrested for assault?

Too much TV watching here...

I swear there's a sin going on here.

That shalt not batter thine rent a cop/usher in thine house of the Lord!

As second in command of the ushers at our church I can say I've had some interesting experiences including cats and birds paying a visit, but this has not been an issue before.

Thats how Luca became the church cat...we could never catch her so it became a can't beat her join her, and she now inhabits the fathers' chairs whenever they are not occupied.

seamusTX wrote:If they have the authority to tell you to leave (which I assume all security guards do), you are obligated to leave. It's the same as you in your home. You don't need a reason to tell someone to leave, and he is committing criminal trespass if he doesn't.

Per TXDPS:

A security officer is an agent of the property owner and in this role can exercise the owner’s right to question people on the owner’s property. If they refuse to answer the questions, or if their answers are not satisfactory, the officer may ask them to leave. If they do not leave, the officer may contact the police and report them for criminal trespassing.

It is understood that the owner's (and thus his/her agent's) authority also extends to giving notice to leave without questioning first.

Interestingly, http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/psb/testin ... review.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; also lists criminal trespass as an offense againt the public peace, (thus making it grounds for a citizen's arrest) though arresting for it seems rather counterproductive: if you just want them to leave, why prevent them from leaving, and add the risks associated with an arrest?

Arresting for criminal trespass has always been a dilemma. If you tell the person to leave, and he doesn't, and you then restrain him, he no longer has the option of leaving.

Police officers here have told me that they do not arrest for CT on open land or in public places unless the violator has already received a written warning in a prior incident on the same property. The reason is that judges always dismiss simple CT with a warning. The courts do not have the resources to try every class C misdemeanor, and apparently judges think that spending a night in jail after the arrest is enough punishment.

However, the routine dismissal of such cases doesn't mean that it's OK to commit CT. I'm sure all of us have had the experience of someone poking around our property. It's irritating to be on the receiving end.

- Jim

If you do not leave, they can use the minimum necessary level of force to make you leave

While under the Code of Criminal Procedure, Title 14.01, a security guard could make a citizens arrest for disturbing the peace, I find no authorization for forcing a criminal trespasser to leave a premises, either without effecting an arrest of the trespasser or after an arrest. Certainly without an arrest in effect, forcibly removing the trespasser would constitute kidnapping.

The old man did the right thing. He left the church in question, and did not go back.

There is no legal recourse to people who get in your face like that security guard got in his. But if you will notice, they are like psychopaths. Always looking for the weak ones to come down on.