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Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:41 pm
by JohnKSa
This has come up a few times on other forums and EVERY single person who has had any experience handcuffing people advised strongly against it.
One LEO made the comment that police are trained and retrained on handcuffing techniques and there are still police killed every year while trying to handcuff suspects.
If they continue to attack, continue to shoot.
If they try to leave, let them unless you reasonably believe that allowing them to leave would expose you or others to life-threatening danger.
If they will stay, make them lie face down as far away from you as the room will allow.
How Would You Know?
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:58 am
by cxm
How would you know they are NOT armed?
It seems sensible to think anyone who will break into an occupied habitation IS armed. Texas law certainly seems to make such a presumption.
FWIW
Chuck
txinvestigator wrote:64zebra wrote:I gave my $.02 on this in the other thread on using cuffs
and as for non-lethal use IN my house....
its my opinion that if a scumbag is in my house OC/taser/baton/etc is not an option (OC for obvious reasons, don't want to gas everyone in the vicinity). Unless I've made the mistake of letting the guy get up close and personal I won't be using anything except my 00 filled Mossy and one of my .45s
just my opinion
You would use deadly force on someone simply in your house, unarmed?
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:05 pm
by KBCraig
JohnKSa wrote:This has come up a few times on other forums and EVERY single person who has had any experience handcuffing people advised strongly against it.
One LEO made the comment that police are trained and retrained on handcuffing techniques and there are still police killed every year while trying to handcuff suspects.
I handcuff people for a living, and wouldn't even think of attempting it by myself in this situation.
Kevin
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:54 pm
by txinvestigator
A question comes to mind regarding cuffs.................Do fuzzy red ones count?
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:58 pm
by Diode
txinvestigator wrote:A question comes to mind regarding cuffs.................Do fuzzy red ones count?
OK, now this thread has potential!
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:15 pm
by 64zebra
txinvestigator wrote:64zebra wrote:I gave my $.02 on this in the other thread on using cuffs
and as for non-lethal use IN my house....
its my opinion that if a scumbag is in my house OC/taser/baton/etc is not an option (OC for obvious reasons, don't want to gas everyone in the vicinity). Unless I've made the mistake of letting the guy get up close and personal I won't be using anything except my 00 filled Mossy and one of my .45s
just my opinion
You would use deadly force on someone simply in your house, unarmed?
You're dang right I would, he has committed a felony by breaking into my house,
A) he runs out the door NOT shooting at me....I don't shoot
B) if illuminated in some manner and complies with my verbal commands...I don't shoot (but he better get face down quick and not breathe wrong
or
C) he has a visible weapon/doesn't comply/advances...BANG (repeated as necessary)
Re: How Would You Know?
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:46 pm
by txinvestigator
cxm wrote:How would you know they are NOT armed?
It seems sensible to think anyone who will break into an occupied habitation IS armed. Texas law certainly seems to make such a presumption.
FWIW
Chuck
txinvestigator wrote:64zebra wrote:I gave my $.02 on this in the other thread on using cuffs
and as for non-lethal use IN my house....
its my opinion that if a scumbag is in my house OC/taser/baton/etc is not an option (OC for obvious reasons, don't want to gas everyone in the vicinity). Unless I've made the mistake of letting the guy get up close and personal I won't be using anything except my 00 filled Mossy and one of my .45s
just my opinion
You would use deadly force on someone simply in your house, unarmed?
where do you see that presumption?
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:49 pm
by txinvestigator
64zebra wrote:txinvestigator wrote:64zebra wrote:I gave my $.02 on this in the other thread on using cuffs
and as for non-lethal use IN my house....
its my opinion that if a scumbag is in my house OC/taser/baton/etc is not an option (OC for obvious reasons, don't want to gas everyone in the vicinity). Unless I've made the mistake of letting the guy get up close and personal I won't be using anything except my 00 filled Mossy and one of my .45s
just my opinion
You would use deadly force on someone simply in your house, unarmed?
You're dang right I would, he has committed a felony by breaking into my house,
A) he runs out the door NOT shooting at me....I don't shoot
B) if illuminated in some manner and complies with my verbal commands...I don't shoot (but he better get face down quick and not breathe wrong
or
C) he has a visible weapon/doesn't comply/advances...BANG (repeated as necessary)
Texas law does not make a justification for use of deadly force for someone committing a "felony".
Your ABC contradicts your first sentence. I asked if you would shoot someone unarmed who is simply in your house.
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:32 pm
by 64zebra
txinvestigator wrote:64zebra wrote:txinvestigator wrote:64zebra wrote:I gave my $.02 on this in the other thread on using cuffs
and as for non-lethal use IN my house....
its my opinion that if a scumbag is in my house OC/taser/baton/etc is not an option (OC for obvious reasons, don't want to gas everyone in the vicinity). Unless I've made the mistake of letting the guy get up close and personal I won't be using anything except my 00 filled Mossy and one of my .45s
just my opinion
You would use deadly force on someone simply in your house, unarmed?
You're dang right I would, he has committed a felony by breaking into my house,
A) he runs out the door NOT shooting at me....I don't shoot
B) if illuminated in some manner and complies with my verbal commands...I don't shoot (but he better get face down quick and not breathe wrong
or
C) he has a visible weapon/doesn't comply/advances...BANG (repeated as necessary)
Texas law does not make a justification for use of deadly force for someone committing a "felony".
Your ABC contradicts your first sentence. I asked if you would shoot someone unarmed who is simply in your house.
Texas law does make a justification for use of deadly force if I feel my life is danger/grave bodily harm, or that of my family or other innocent persons. I think this is more than covered is some scumbag has broken into my house and does anything other than run out the door or get spread eagle on the floor. Whether I see a weapon in his hand or not, the 21ft rule applies in my house and on the street so if he makes a bad move its over with.
I don't think the ABCs above contradict, merely give more detail....
If someone other than my son or my wife is in my house univited and I feel that me or my family are in danger I would not hesitate to shoot them under certain conditions, as stated earlier
in B) if he "breathes wrong" he will get shot, as in makes any sudden moves, etc, bottom line is I won't take any chances on something like this in my house, like someone's signature line says "if they're in your house they are not there for tea"
If they end up being unarmed then so be it, they shouldn't have broken into my house in the first place and made me feel threatened.
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:04 pm
by gigag04
64zebra wrote:Whether I see a weapon in his hand or not, the 21ft rule applies in my house and on the street so if he makes a bad move its over with.
The "21 ft" rule (I'll spare you the proper name) applies in situations where your weapon is not at the ready and an attacker is armed with a knife. If you are investigating something suspisious with a holstered/unready weapon then you need a better plan of action.
64zebra wrote:
If they end up being unarmed then so be it, they shouldn't have broken into my house in the first place and made me feel threatened.
Have fun in court. What if its your son's friend who is running from something dangerous? I could list many more "what ifs" that would get you in a heap of trouble with this mindset. Just read all the horror stories on people that acted without proper threat identification. Charles even has one (a certain shirt attack). This quoted statement is rediculous and gives me the impression you are irresponsible. It isn't your fault you shot someone you shouldn't have - they MADE YOU feel threatened...even if in ignorance.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you really need to reconsider this point because the ramifications of this can be huge and even endager people's lives.
-nick
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:25 pm
by 64zebra
gigag04 wrote:64zebra wrote:Whether I see a weapon in his hand or not, the 21ft rule applies in my house and on the street so if he makes a bad move its over with.
The "21 ft" rule (I'll spare you the proper name) applies in situations where your weapon is not at the ready and an attacker is armed with a knife. If you are investigating something suspisious with a holstered/unready weapon then you need a better plan of action.
---I know about the 21 foot rule, thats why I mentioned it, point being that if someone is in my house that close that they can close the distance to me with a blunt object/blade/etc really quickly and I'll have to be prepared for that
64zebra wrote:
If they end up being unarmed then so be it, they shouldn't have broken into my house in the first place and made me feel threatened.
Have fun in court. What if its your son's friend who is running from something dangerous? I could list many more "what ifs" that would get you in a heap of trouble with this mindset. Just read all the horror stories on people that acted without proper threat identification. Charles even has one (a certain shirt attack). This quoted statement is rediculous and gives me the impression you are irresponsible. It isn't your fault you shot someone you shouldn't have - they MADE YOU feel threatened...even if in ignorance.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you really need to reconsider this point because the ramifications of this can be huge and even endager people's lives.
-nick
---I guess I should feel sorry for someone that has broken into my house and that I feel may have a weapon and could harm me
---my son is 3, he won't have any friends running into my house
---and no I'm not irresponsible, I'm responsible for my protection and that of my family, if the scumbag in my home does anything threatening he will get shot; (I do have lights that I can turn on in the house and weapon mounted to assist in identification, I never said I'd go blasting away down the hallway)
ex: unarmed man that was shot by a DPS trooper here in town recently, guy made a threatening move that gave the impression he was armed and he got shot in the head, grand jury cleared the trooper;
listen, I'm not looking for trouble from anyone, I am a responsible person and firearms owner and there is no need to continue this little disagreement if you're going to say my reasons for defending myself are ridiculous,
I have an opinion about defending myself and I think everyone out there should too
---I don't think my statement is ridiculous at all, I'm just a man that will protect himself and his family
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:48 pm
by gigag04
64zebra wrote:if the scumbag in my home does anything threatening he will get shot
Agreed! This isn't the scenario that was presented when I responded. This is a much better way to handle the situation. The bolded portion is a huge key. Merely commiting the felony of being in my house, in my mind, does not warrant lethal force, as I see LF as a last resort.
-nick
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:07 pm
by 64zebra
exactly, maybe my first posts didn't come across right, i'm not a vigilante nor would I blast someone just for the heck of it; the part about breaking in being a felony was meant to convey this person's actions/mindset and mine better react accordingly
as for the original topic (to get back to it) I see no need to handcuff someone in my house, its one story, all my bedrooms are on one end at the end of a hallway, front and back doors are in other end of house so I have a safe area to hunker down if need be
Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:32 pm
by txinvestigator
64zebra wrote:txinvestigator wrote:64zebra wrote:txinvestigator wrote:64zebra wrote:I gave my $.02 on this in the other thread on using cuffs
and as for non-lethal use IN my house....
its my opinion that if a scumbag is in my house OC/taser/baton/etc is not an option (OC for obvious reasons, don't want to gas everyone in the vicinity). Unless I've made the mistake of letting the guy get up close and personal I won't be using anything except my 00 filled Mossy and one of my .45s
just my opinion
You would use deadly force on someone simply in your house, unarmed?
You're dang right I would, he has committed a felony by breaking into my house,
A) he runs out the door NOT shooting at me....I don't shoot
B) if illuminated in some manner and complies with my verbal commands...I don't shoot (but he better get face down quick and not breathe wrong
or
C) he has a visible weapon/doesn't comply/advances...BANG (repeated as necessary)
Texas law does not make a justification for use of deadly force for someone committing a "felony".
Your ABC contradicts your first sentence. I asked if you would shoot someone unarmed who is simply in your house.
Texas law does make a justification for use of deadly force if I feel my life is danger/grave bodily harm, or that of my family or other innocent persons.
NO it does not. Your feelings are never mentioned in the law. The law state that you must
reasonably believe that deadly force is
immediately necessary to protect yourself against the others use or attempted use of
unlawful deadly force. If not in your house, you can only use that deadly force if the above conditions are met AND
if a reasonable person in your situation would not have retreated .
I think this is more than covered is some scumbag has broken into my house and does anything other than run out the door or get spread eagle on the floor. Whether I see a weapon in his hand or not, the 21ft rule applies in my house and on the street so if he makes a bad move its over with.
The 21 foot "rule" is a self-defense concept, not a piece of law. What would be a "bad move" and exactly what is "its over with" supposed to mean?
I don't think the ABCs above contradict, merely give more detail....
If someone other than my son or my wife is in my house univited and I feel that me or my family are in danger I would not hesitate to shoot them under certain conditions, as stated earlier
in B) if he "breathes wrong" he will get shot, as in makes any sudden moves, etc, bottom line is I won't take any chances on something like this in my house, like someone's signature line says "if they're in your house they are not there for tea"
If they end up being unarmed then so be it, they shouldn't have broken into my house in the first place and made me feel threatened.
**sigh** I hope you have a good attorney.
Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:35 pm
by txinvestigator
gigag04 wrote:64zebra wrote:if the scumbag in my home does anything threatening he will get shot
Agreed! This isn't the scenario that was presented when I responded. This is a much better way to handle the situation. The bolded portion is a huge key. Merely commiting the felony of being in my house, in my mind, does not warrant lethal force, as I see LF as a last resort.
-nick
Being in your house is not a felony. He must be there with the intent to commit a felony, theft or assault, for it to be a burglary.
Lets say the autistic teenager who lives two strets over gets confused and forces his way into your house at 2am. He is NOT committing a burglary.