TexasCHLforum.com

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Taltyman wrote:

Then the CHL got out to chit chat and his gun fell on the ground.

He must have been the clumsy CHL who went to the Texas State Fair and screwed things
up for the rest of us. :-)

SIA

Good one SIA!!

Anyone know if COE property is posted as such or is posted at all?

stash wrote:Anyone know if COE property is posted as such or is posted at all?

Doesn't have to be. Per 36 CFR 327.13 COE land falls under federal rules, not state, and is off-limits. There are exceptions where they are teaching hunter safety or other firearms courses, or have a range on property, but there are specific guidelines as to bringing your firearm for that venture.

Thanks Keith. Maybe I should have asked the question differently. What I meant to ask was how does one know it is COE land? Do they have a sign or something to indicate it is federal property or COE land?

stash wrote:Thanks Keith. Maybe I should have asked the question differently. What I meant to ask was how does one know it is COE land? Do they have a sign or something to indicate it is federal property or COE land?

Not necessarily.

mr.72 wrote:

stash wrote:Thanks Keith. Maybe I should have asked the question differently. What I meant to ask was how does one know it is COE land? Do they have a sign or something to indicate it is federal property or COE land?

Not necessarily.

Mr. 72 is absolutly correct. COE land usually surrounds lakes and bodies of water, since their function in life is flood control. However, there could be locations I am unaware of that are not near water.

One other thing to watch is there are several locations where a park that is on the edge of a lake is controlled by another entity (like a city or TPWD) but the land is still owned by COE. In this case, the property is still off limits, but can be deceiving since the other entity controls it. A good example is Copperas Branch Park on Lake Dallas. The City of Highland Village runs the park, but is is DEFINITELY COE land! And there is not one sign I rememebr seeing that stated it beloned to the COE.

Would the current law apply to being on a waterbody such as Sam Rayburn Reservoir? The State of Texas owns the water and the water bottoms to the high water mark.

Corps of Engineers Lake may be a misnomer if the Corps merely owns the surrounding land within the project boundary.

casingpoint wrote:Would the current law apply to a waterbody such as Sam Rayburn Reservoir? The State of Texas owns the water in this Corps of Engineers lake and, making an assumption here, probably the water bottom to the high water mark.

Corps of Engineers Lake may be a misnomer if the Corps merely owns the surrounding land within the project boundary.

Really won't matter. Even if that would play out, while the state may own the water, the bowl it sits in is owned by COE. To get into it you are going to have to cross COE property, unless you come in via helicopter, parachute or flying saucer. And you wpould have to leave the same way to not be in violation.

keithb,

I modified my earlier post to reflect the State does own all water bottoms in Texas. Sorry about that.

casingpoint wrote:keithb,

I modified my earlier post to reflect the State does own all water bottoms in Texas. Sorry about that.

Can you link to a statute? I still don't think it would make a difference as the shore around it would still be COE.

casingpoint wrote:keithb,

I modified my earlier post to reflect the State does own all water bottoms in Texas. Sorry about that.

Can you link to a statute on that? I still don't think it would make any difference since the shore around it and any access to it would be via COE.

http://law.justia.com/texas/codes/pw/00 ... 01.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SUBCHAPTER B. PROPERTY OF THE STATE



§ 1.011. PROPERTY OF THE STATE. (a) All wild animals,
fur-bearing animals, wild birds, and wild fowl inside the borders
of this state are the property of the people of this state.
(b) All fish and other aquatic animal life contained in the
freshwater rivers, creeks, and streams and in lakes or sloughs
subject to overflow from rivers or other streams within the borders
of this state are the property of the people of this state.
(c) All the beds and bottoms and the products of the beds and
bottoms of the public rivers, bayous, lagoons, creeks, lakes, bays,
and inlets in this state and of that part of the Gulf of Mexico
within the jurisdiction of this state are the property of this
state. The state may permit the use of the waters and bottoms and
the taking of the products of the bottoms and waters.
(d) The Parks and Wildlife Department shall regulate the
taking and conservation of fish, oysters, shrimp, crabs, turtles,
terrapins, mussels, lobsters, and all other kinds and forms of
marine life, or sand, gravel, marl, mud shell, and all other kinds
of shell in accordance with the authority vested in it by this code.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975.

casingpoint wrote:http://law.justia.com/texas/codes/pw/00 ... 01.00.html

SUBCHAPTER B. PROPERTY OF THE STATE



§ 1.011. PROPERTY OF THE STATE. (a) All wild animals,
fur-bearing animals, wild birds, and wild fowl inside the borders
of this state are the property of the people of this state.
(b) All fish and other aquatic animal life contained in the
freshwater rivers, creeks, and streams and in lakes or sloughs
subject to overflow from rivers or other streams within the borders
of this state are the property of the people of this state.
(c) All the beds and bottoms and the products of the beds and
bottoms of the public rivers, bayous, lagoons, creeks, lakes, bays,
and inlets in this state and of that part of the Gulf of Mexico
within the jurisdiction of this state are the property of this
state. The state may permit the use of the waters and bottoms and
the taking of the products of the bottoms and waters.
(d) The Parks and Wildlife Department shall regulate the
taking and conservation of fish, oysters, shrimp, crabs, turtles,
terrapins, mussels, lobsters, and all other kinds and forms of
marine life, or sand, gravel, marl, mud shell, and all other kinds
of shell in accordance with the authority vested in it by this code.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975.

Think I may have found the COE loophole. See above. Are they really PUBLIC or does the COE just allow us to use them?

EDIT TO UPDATE: Well, just found that they are http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/employ ... icland.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, so it would be a court ruling for that one. Interesting.

The lands 'under' the lake are fee-owned by the US Government just as are the lands purchased above the high pool level AND the areas like White Oak Creek Mitigation Area (managed by TPWD) which was purchased fee-simple by the US Government to offset the bottom land environment lost to Cooper Dam / Jim Chapman Lake (also managed by TPWD). The US Government owns the land in entirety in the lake, including the former thalweg, as well as a specific land amount up and downstream where the original river or creek ('crik') still flows within its original banks.

The water in a USACE operated lake is like a layer cake - a certain level is kept for recreation (if in the lake's authority), a certain amount is available for water supply (owned by the water district or river authority), and a certain portion is available above the water supply top level for flood storage.

Look at the specific District's website to find out what lakes have leased/licensed parks etc. The TPWD website always mentions if a lake, park, or mitigation area is USACE-owned. The only real exception is O.C. fisher, which does not appear on the Fort Worth District website, even though fee-owned and constructed by the Corps, because the Corps does not maintain a presence at O.C. Fisher and it is managed by TPWD. Still Federal land though and USACE regs still apply - but no Corps personnel present... so...

An interesting little tidbit here:
http://140.194.76.129/publications/eng- ... 50/c-7.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Non federal law enforcement personnel shall not be given Federal citation authority for enforcement of regulations contained in Title 36 (36 CFR 327). Enforcement of Title 36 regulations shall remain the responsibility of the Corps.

And, as has been pointed out before here, Title 36 CFR 327 contains that nasty little restriction on loaded firearms, and separately, ammunition, on Corps property:

§ 327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.

(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:

(1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;

(2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under §327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;

(3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or

(4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.

(b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.

http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title36/36 ... .1.14.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems the federal law is somewhat overreaching here, in that it bans not only the possession of loaded firearms, but also ammunition. Of course if you can't have ammo, there's little use in having a firearm. Yet it permits the possession of an unloaded firearm, but only during a hunting or fishing. Since the fishing season is year around down here, does that say I can transport an unloaded firearm to a fishing hole and then load it? That, of course, completely negates the provision in (a.), and discriminates against persons who live where the fishing season is closed during certain months. God forbid that federal law discriminate against Yankees. I hope someone can clarify this garbage, before I shove a loaded 357 MAGNUM in my belt, casting rod loaded with a Little George, and take off across Lake Sam Rayburn looking for schools of white bass to murder, crazed lunatic motor boater that I am.