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Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:39 pm
by txmatt
frazzled wrote: Thats the problem, its done better in private schools for people who have the money to send their children to private schools. Many do not.
If there were more private schools operating costs and tuition would likely come down. If people weren't paying property taxes to pay for public schools they could then use that money to go a long way towards paying for a private school. Some would still be unable to pay all of it, but helping the poor with a government program sure beats socializing the whole darn thing like they have done with education and want to do with healthcare.

It comes down to government control and lack of trust of people to make responsible choices. As gun owners this attitude should concern us.

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:00 pm
by mr.72
frazzled wrote: Thats the problem, its done better in private schools for people who have the money to send their children to private schools. Many do not.
Well, if they don't have the money to send their children to private schools, then they certainly don't have the money to pay for government schools either, right?

That's the point. They pay for it either way. It would cost less and give better service if they were to NOT pay the property taxes for public school and instead send the kids to private school WITH THE VERY SAME MONEY. It does not cost MORE to send kids to private school, except that they force you to pay for private school PLUS public school. If there were no public school, then you would pay LESS to send ALL kids to private school than we pay to send kids to public school.

This will be the same way with health care.

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:29 pm
by Purplehood
mr.72 wrote:
frazzled wrote: Thats the problem, its done better in private schools for people who have the money to send their children to private schools. Many do not.
Well, if they don't have the money to send their children to private schools, then they certainly don't have the money to pay for government schools either, right?

That's the point. They pay for it either way. It would cost less and give better service if they were to NOT pay the property taxes for public school and instead send the kids to private school WITH THE VERY SAME MONEY. It does not cost MORE to send kids to private school, except that they force you to pay for private school PLUS public school. If there were no public school, then you would pay LESS to send ALL kids to private school than we pay to send kids to public school.

This will be the same way with health care.
I admit to preferring the public schooling option. I really dread seeing a nation full of completely uneducated idiots running around because their parents didn't bother sending them to private school for whatever reason.

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:57 pm
by frazzled
Purplehood wrote:
mr.72 wrote:
frazzled wrote: Thats the problem, its done better in private schools for people who have the money to send their children to private schools. Many do not.
Well, if they don't have the money to send their children to private schools, then they certainly don't have the money to pay for government schools either, right?

That's the point. They pay for it either way. It would cost less and give better service if they were to NOT pay the property taxes for public school and instead send the kids to private school WITH THE VERY SAME MONEY. It does not cost MORE to send kids to private school, except that they force you to pay for private school PLUS public school. If there were no public school, then you would pay LESS to send ALL kids to private school than we pay to send kids to public school.

This will be the same way with health care.
I admit to preferring the public schooling option. I really dread seeing a nation full of completely uneducated idiots running around because their parents didn't bother sending them to private school for whatever reason.
:iagree: Indeed, for the good of us all, need education, even if just in our own selfish interest.
(looks at pitcture of current president and sighs)
Remember, uneducated people vote too. In chicago, two or three times even. :cryin

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:00 pm
by mr.72
I really dread seeing a nation full of completely uneducated idiots running around because their parents didn't bother sending them to private school for whatever reason.
That's no different from what we have now.

The point is, if the government can force you to "buy" education service from the state, whether you are a consumer of said service or not, then that looks a lot like a precedent for them forcing you to buy health insurance from the state, or to buy just about anything from the state (such as, for example, a GM car...). What is to stop them from forcing you to buy whatever they want you to buy?

It's very difficult to make the argument that we should not be forced to buy health insurance from the Feds, regardless of our intent of using it or private sector competition, and then flip flop and take the exact opposite position regarding the state's mandate on the purchase of education.

Slip-slidin' away. We all get the government we deserve.

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:44 pm
by The Annoyed Man
First of all, what a great conversation. This is exactly how it should be.
mr.72 wrote:
frazzled wrote: Thats the problem, its done better in private schools for people who have the money to send their children to private schools. Many do not.
Well, if they don't have the money to send their children to private schools, then they certainly don't have the money to pay for government schools either, right?

That's the point. They pay for it either way. It would cost less and give better service if they were to NOT pay the property taxes for public school and instead send the kids to private school WITH THE VERY SAME MONEY. It does not cost MORE to send kids to private school, except that they force you to pay for private school PLUS public school. If there were no public school, then you would pay LESS to send ALL kids to private school than we pay to send kids to public school.

This will be the same way with health care.
It would be interesting to see how that might play out from the standpoint of market forces. It could almost go either way. In regard to healthcare, public option proponents would argue that removing government from competing with private insurers has guaranteed that insurance prices would go up... ...and they have. OTH, realists with a smattering of business sense would argue that prices have gone up because costs have not been contained, and those increased costs are being passed through to the consumer instead of being taken out of the insurance companies' profits. — hence the playing of the "tort reform card." Personally, I favor the latter explanation.

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:03 pm
by idrathernot
While we're on the subject on "Public" (read government) Education, I have a WONDERFUL book to recommend.

It's called "The Underground History of American Education" and you can read it online for FREE!

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Purplehood wrote: I admit to preferring the public schooling option. I really dread seeing a nation full of completely uneducated idiots running around because their parents didn't bother sending them to private school for whatever reason.
Just a very fractional taste below that you might find interesting:

"If you believe nothing can be done for the dumb except kindness, because it’s biology (the bell-curve model); if you believe capitalist oppressors have ruined the dumb because they are bad people (the neo-Marxist model); if you believe dumbness reflects depraved moral fiber (the Calvinist model); or that it’s nature’s way of disqualifying boobies from the reproduction sweepstakes (the Darwinian model); or nature’s way of providing someone to clean your toilet (the pragmatic elitist model); or that it’s evidence of bad karma (the Buddhist model); if you believe any of the various explanations given for the position of the dumb in the social order we have, then you will be forced to concur that a vast bureaucracy is indeed necessary to address the dumb. Otherwise they would murder us in our beds."

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:29 pm
by chabouk
Purplehood wrote:I admit to preferring the public schooling option. I really dread seeing a nation full of completely uneducated idiots running around because their parents didn't bother sending them to private school for whatever reason.
Have you looked at the end result when they send them to public school?

Your phrase "uneducated idiots running around" comes to mind.

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:06 pm
by Dudley
WildBill wrote:Even though education is not a constitutional right should access to it be limited to only those who can pay?
No. You should be free to use your money to provide a scholarship to someone else if you want, because it's your money. You should be allowed to use your own money (or money you raised from voluntary contributions) to fund a school where you provide an education to students without charging tuition.

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:22 am
by Purplehood
chabouk wrote:
Purplehood wrote:I admit to preferring the public schooling option. I really dread seeing a nation full of completely uneducated idiots running around because their parents didn't bother sending them to private school for whatever reason.
Have you looked at the end result when they send them to public school?

Your phrase "uneducated idiots running around" comes to mind.
Yes, but some of them can spell their names.

Seriously, the more uneducated folks you see running around the more fodder you generate for the Socialist pogrom/program. I have seen many complete idiots graduate from Public Education. I have seen many more quality kids graduate from Public Education. I would never assume that Public Education automatically equals a dysfunctional illiterate (with the possible exception of California graduates, they take abysmal to new levels).

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:17 am
by Zee
I see evidence that private schools don't guarantee a certain outcome either. It mostly depends on what you've got to work with. You can't buy smarts.

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:29 am
by Purplehood
Zee wrote:I see evidence that private schools don't guarantee a certain outcome either. It mostly depends on what you've got to work with. You can't buy smarts.
I particularly enjoy all the noise about Home Schooling. It reminds me of the parable of the Blind leading the Blind. Not in every instance, but certainly in some.

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:52 am
by Oldgringo
Wouldn't it be grand if our so-called elected representatives put this much thought into their positions on various issues and questions as has been evidenced herein?

Perhaps the major difference in the approaches and thought processes above as opposed to what eventually comes out of the hallowed halls of government is the fact that our more learned forum members are not running for re-election?

Good job all :tiphat:

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:12 am
by mr.72
The Annoyed Man wrote: It would be interesting to see how that might play out from the standpoint of market forces. It could almost go either way. In regard to healthcare, public option proponents would argue that removing government from competing with private insurers has guaranteed that insurance prices would go up... ...and they have. OTH, realists with a smattering of business sense would argue that prices have gone up because costs have not been contained, and those increased costs are being passed through to the consumer instead of being taken out of the insurance companies' profits. — hence the playing of the "tort reform card." Personally, I favor the latter explanation.
Actually, the more accurate (IMHO, of course) explanation for why "costs" or "prices" have gone up for health services is the exact same reason income taxes, property taxes, and that sort of thing have gone up in cost. It's simply because the consumer of the services is not the one paying the bill at the point of purchase (which I outlined in my blog post http://conformityfeared.blogspot.com/20 ... eform.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

There is no containing of any costs if the person making the decision to buy or not to buy, or to what extent to buy, is not made aware of the cost at the time of purchase.

If health care services were not covered under health insurance, then what are the odds that when you go to the doctor with a cold, you are going to pay for a blood test "just in case"? Maybe the 15 minutes of the doctor's time would have cost you $50 for the visit, but the lab work costs $200 and then the "just in case" round of antibiotics that do absolutely nothing to treat a cold cost you another $100 so now you have paid SEVEN TIMES the price you would have paid if you actually were aware of the cost at the time of purchase of the service. You paid $350 for what should have cost $50 (you go to the doctor, he says "it's a cold, and there is no treatment for a cold, stay home and rest, take OTC cold remedies for the symptoms and it'll go away in a week"), and wasted lab resources and prescription medications to diagnose and treat what you might have rather than what you do have.

Even with health insurance in the picture, if your employer did not pay for your health insurance directly without your intervention, I think the odds are slim you would choose to buy it. When I was at my previous job (12.5 years for a big technology leader) they paid $1400/month for my health insurance benefits, and my portion was about $120/month. So the only amount I could choose not to pay was $120. If they had just paid me the extra $1400/month, given that I am reasonably young, healthy, have a healthy and young family, and we are very low-risk, I would likely have chosen to keep the majority of that $1400/month and instead buy a major-medical policy at 1/4 of that price and pay for routine doctor visits and prescription drugs as needed out of my own pocket. But since I was unable to make the choice as the actual consumer, then I also was unable to control the cost.

Here's a specific example. I went to the doctor once about ten years ago with severe knee pain. I was referred to an orthopedic surgeon. He ordered an MRI before even seeing me. The average price of an MRI is about $1600. He didn't even LOOK at my knee before ordering this MRI. The MRI was inconclusive. It showed a fluid cyst in my knee which could be felt by hand and was visible under the skin and required no special equipment to see. But nevertheless, the surgeon figured that I needed knee surgery to fix a likely cartilage tear that was not shown in the MRI. So he was going to do arthroscopic surgery in order to find a cartilage tear that might be there, which bills the insurance company over $10,000. Had I gone through with this round of treatment, I would have spent about $12,000 total for a solution that was in search of a problem. Needless to say I elected not to have the surgery, and my knee got better on its own. Exactly a year later I had the same problem in the other knee, I could feel the same fluid cyst and the pain was exactly the same. My doctor again referred me to the very same orthopedic surgeon who by routine ordered an MRI before even seeing me. Then when I got there to actually see him he tried to book surgery to do the same hunting on my other knee and didn't even bother to check and see whether I got surgery on my previous injured knee and whether this was in fact the correct solution to the problem. In reality, if the doctor I saw the first time had not referred me to a specialist, and had identified the fluid cyst, then I would have paid $50 for one doctor visit and the treatment of "rest and ice" would have been prescribed, but because of the habit of Americans with expensive health insurance to pay huge sums of money for treatment rather than diagnosis if I had done what the doctor recommended I would have likely racked up $25,000 to $50,000 in bills.

Now, the fact that I saved the insurance company 99.5% of the cost they were intending to pay did not affect my own health care cost one single penny. So there was nothing in it for me except fewer scars on my knees and less time lost at work for surgery and recovery. Since there is normally no benefit for the consumer to contain the costs, then there is no reason for them to contain the costs.

So the reason that health care costs are out of control is because the user of health care services is not allowed to control those costs at all.

And the current health care (insurance) "reform" plan just drives this problem further in the wrong direction. Incidentally, this is just as much about liberty and freedom as it is about health care. I want the freedom to choose whether to get an MRI and make an informed decision, and I want the right to keep the money that I save by not doing the MRI. But the way we are going, you pay for it whether you use it or not, just like with public schools and all other things government.

So while the majority of Americans with the entitlement mentality think that health insurance should be provided at someone else's expense, and that someone else should be the evil, greedy company they work for or the all-loving government, who can take money from the evil, greedy rich to pay for it, this is the opposite of liberty. It results from the past two or three decades of transition from health insurance being a luxurious perk that people got from a small number of large employers to an expectation that everyone down to the bagger at HEB gets no matter what. This is fed from class envy where employees think that the employer is abundantly rich and greedy to keep all these profits and the employee is owed something. This thought is the result of emotion and no knowledge or education of how business actually works. Frankly I want the company I work for now to be successful, because if they are successful, I am successful. And it erodes their profit for them to pay for health insurance that is overpriced and pays for services that are not needed for the majority of their workforce. That eroded profit puts my employment at risk and affects my bottom line in the end. So I wish my company did not offer health insurance at all to anyone and would instead just pay actual real money to the employees in full and let us all make our own choices about health care. But Americans today are not about choice. They are conditioned to have their money confiscated before they even know they have it to buy things that they wouldn't otherwise buy "for their own good", such as social security, public schools, health insurance, government-run charities (welfare, ACORN anyone?), etc., and they know that if given the choice to spend their own money however they see fit, they will make stupid choices. Then they will blame the government for not taking away their money or someone else's to save them from their own foolish choices.

Re: A Right To Healthcare

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:45 am
by WildBill
mr.72 wrote:If health care services were not covered under health insurance, then what are the odds that when you go to the doctor with a cold, you are going to pay for a blood test "just in case"? Maybe the 15 minutes of the doctor's time would have cost you $50 for the visit, but the lab work costs $200 and then the "just in case" round of antibiotics that do absolutely nothing to treat a cold cost you another $100 so now you have paid SEVEN TIMES the price you would have paid if you actually were aware of the cost at the time of purchase of the service. You paid $350 for what should have cost $50 (you go to the doctor, he says "it's a cold, and there is no treatment for a cold, stay home and rest, take OTC cold remedies for the symptoms and it'll go away in a week"), and wasted lab resources and prescription medications to diagnose and treat what you might have rather than what you do have.
:iagree: There is also the issue of doing additional "just in case" tests and procedures so that you won't sue the doctor for malpractice if it turns out to be more than just a cold.