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Posted: **Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:22 pm**

AndyC wrote:
marksiwel wrote:In the one example they were able to take them for court for, 14 people are dead.
I have a BIG Problem with mercenaries being employed by MY Government. One of the reasons being they have a hard time being held accountable for their actions.
Then get the military enlarged, then. I guarantee you, having been there, that the military as it is currently can not do it alone - so suck it up and accept it or work to get it changed. Whining about the situation ain't going to cut it. Yeah let me just raise the budget, oh wait, I cant do that but I agree

marksiwel wrote:Read the Book, Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army, you will find a couple of things that will disturb you.
Oh, the Jeremy Scahill hit-piece? He's a non-entity who has made a career out of smearing BW - or anyone else - any way he can. If that's all you can quote, you'll have to give up now - that's like getting Limbaugh's opinion of Obama and quoting it as gospel.
Care to point out anything he wrote that was untrue? Its easy to call something a "hit piece" but not throw any facts to PROVE IT.
marksiwel wrote:I'll just throw out some things Blackwaters done that make me mad.
* Arms Smuggling.
Where and when? Cite, please.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7008058.stm "two former members of staff with the firm had pleaded guilty in Greenville, North Carolina, to weapons charges and the pair were now co-operating with federal investigators. " Wait let me guess, you are going to say a few people dont represent the company as a whole right? Just like ACORN
marksiwel wrote:* They helped a crooked Iraq Poltico escape the country (Forget his name)
Did they? Who, why and who ordered him out of the country? Cite, please.
Aiham Alsammarae http://rezkowatch.blogspot.com/2008/02/ ... -iraq.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
marksiwel wrote:* Their actions in Post Katrina New Orleans
What did they do? And please don't post that pic of the police toting rifles that has been edited to show BW on their chests.
I was talking about the money the goverment wasted on them, please try and not be so defensive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XaiAIVUTB4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

marksiwel wrote:* Remember when one of their "Contractors" got drunk and shot someone? Then they smuggled him out of the country? Good times
Agree totally with you. thank you
marksiwel wrote:* Their help in the Torture scandal in Iraq.
They helped the military do that? How exactly? Cite, please.
marksiwel wrote:* Numerous shooting that may or may not be justified.
So you have a problem people shooting when justified? Agree totally whenever there was a unjustifiable shooting

Posted: **Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:24 pm**

marksiwel wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
marksiwel wrote:dont know how I feel about this.
Blackwaters done alot of bad things that they havent been called on
For example?
In the one example they were able to take them for court for, 14 people are dead.

Mark, with all due respect, the facts of the case are very much in dispute, so you don't truly know beyond a shadow of doubt if they were murderers... ...or returning fire against an enemy who got away and they were fighting for their lives. The Iraqi insurgents have shown absolutely zero restraint when it comes to collateral casualties. We don't know for absolute certain if the civilian casualties were the result of Blackwater bullets or insurgent bullets; and even some of the testimony against the operators seems to indicate that some of the rounds incoming against Blackwater personnel were actually "friendly" fire — which is a sad but not uncommon reality of battle. If that is the case, then it would be hard to make a case for murderous intent.

I have a BIG Problem with mercenaries being employed by MY Government. One of the reasons being they have a hard time being held accountable for their actions.

I have two "yes, buts" for you.

1) Every single one of our military personnel are paid professionals, so the only real difference between them and private contractors is that they enjoy certain protections from civilian criminal law which the contractors do not. And so in that sense, the contractors are actually more accountable than the military. Whether they are held accountable depends on whether or not a prosecutor can actually develop and present a case. In the case above, the prosecutor apparently was not able to do so. That is for one of two reasons: either the prosecutor is an idiot and botched the prosecution, or the men charged are actually innocent. Under our civilian judicial system, innocence is assumed, and a man is not guilty until the prosecution has proven the case. Don't condemn the accused because the prosecution couldn't live up to that standard. Since they have not been proven to be guilty, you don't know for a certain fact that they are guilty. But you are talking like they are.

2) The contractors are all, for the most part, products of the same military system to which the troops on the ground currently belong to, so they have at least the same level of training, and in many cases, probably more. By performing such details as convoy security (which is the context of the above shooting), corporate security, and diplomatic security functions, all of which are necessary to returning Iraq to some kind of normal footing, the presence of mercenaries frees up American combat troops to do what they do best.

The thing is, I actually know a couple of Blackwater mercenaries who have spent time in country, and they are pretty upstanding guys who do a difficult job under much tighter rules of engagement than their military counterparts, and they can't call in arty or air support. I don't begrudge them one red cent of what they get paid.

Posted: **Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:28 pm**

AndyC wrote:
marksiwel wrote:In the one example they were able to take them for court for, 14 people are dead.
I have a BIG Problem with mercenaries being employed by MY Government. One of the reasons being they have a hard time being held accountable for their actions.
Then get the military enlarged, then. I guarantee you, having been there, that the military as it is currently can not do it alone - so suck it up and accept it or work to get it changed. Whining about the situation ain't going to cut it.

I think we should cut back on the military and bring most of the troops home. There may be good reasons to have specops teams operating around the globe, and carrier groups have a place in the tool box, but I think we spend too much money and lose too many lives on feelgood "peace keeping" missions.

Posted: **Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:29 pm**

basically I dont like Mercenary groups, Blackwater and others like them hold no loyalty towards the US or our Allies, the hold Loyalty to whomever is paying. Blackwater is not made up just of former US troops, its full of lots of ex-patriots from all over the place. |
I do not wish to discuss this further because I dont see a Healthy or productive conclusion.
Dont you work for a Contractor? Maybe you dont see it like the rest of us?

Posted: **Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:36 pm**

Andy, do you know if and where that photo was published in the edited version?

Posted: **Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:34 pm**

You guys are getting pretty worked up about this. Let's keep it civil.

Posted: **Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:48 pm**

Crossfire wrote:You guys are getting pretty worked up about this. Let's keep it civil.

Thank you C.F.

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Re: Judge tosses Blackwater case, cites gov't missteps

Re: Judge tosses Blackwater case, cites gov't missteps

Re: Judge tosses Blackwater case, cites gov't missteps

Re: Judge tosses Blackwater case, cites gov't missteps