TexasCHLforum.com

Call KVUE and tell them what you think.

OK! Today I got a response to the email I sent this morning. It is from the APD Public Information Office. The sent me a copy of their press release. Essentially they are saying that because of a series of crimes in the past at a single location, they are using the Public Nuisance statutes to take action. What they do not go into is that this is a new business not associated with past shows. In any case this is their official position.

They prepared a press release dated today. The wording is below but if you want you can open the PDF file I have attached to view the document with APD letterhead.


Public Information Office: (512) 974-5017 715 E. 8th St. Austin, Texas 78701
http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/police" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 19, 2010
Contact: Public Information Office, 974-5017
Gun Shows at 10601 North Lamar Boulevard
Federal Immigration, Customs, and Enforcement (ICE) agents worked
cooperatively with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
(ATF) agents last year in a long-term operation targeting illegal gun trafficking that
was stemming from local gun shows. Austin Police Department Firearm Review
Unit detectives assisted in the Austin portion of the operation. They observed and
participated in multiple arrests of prohibited persons (primarily convicted felons
and illegal immigrants) that obtained firearms illegally at a local gun show.
Federal convictions were obtained in a majority of the cases.
Virtually all of these sales to prohibited persons were made by unlicensed dealers
or private citizens, both inside the gun show and in the parking lot of the gun
show. While the sale of firearms between private citizens is not illegal, the
anonymity of these sales in or around the event created an easy avenue for illegal
immigrants or convicted felons to acquire firearms. Because of this recurring
activity at a single location, the Firearm Review Unit referred the case over to the
APD Nuisance Abatement Unit.
Due to the history of criminal activity at the gun show, the Nuisance Abatement
Unit scheduled a meeting between the property lessee (HEB Grocery), the
building sub-lessee (Andrew Perkel a.k.a Austin Market Place), the event
promoter (Darwin Boedecker-Texas Gun Shows) and ATF. During this meeting,
APD along with ATF offered to all parties, recommendations to curb the illegal
activity that had been documented in the past. At the conclusion of the meeting
the lessee agreed that the recommendations should be followed and instructed
their sub-lessee to follow the recommendations. The sub-lessee then informed
the event promoter to implement the recommendations at the next show. The
recommendations that the lessee directed the sub-lessee and the event promoter
to follow were:
1. Only licensed gun dealers are allowed to sell firearms at the gun shows
2. The promoter will provide on-site security to prevent parking lot gun sales
Public Information Office: (512) 974-5017 715 E. 8th St. Austin, Texas 78701
http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/police" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3. The promoter will define a process for people other than licensed dealers that
show up with a gun that they want to sell
There was an understanding that the January 16-17, 2010 gun show would follow
these recommendations.
Media Advisory: APD personnel will be available for an interview at 3:00 pm today
at the headquarters building. Please call PIO if you plan to attend.
###

austinrealtor wrote:Who's willing to participate in helping organize a group of Austin area TexasCHLForum members to attend the Texas Gun Show on Saturday February 20 to show support for the gun show promotor and protest the BATFE and APD actions? Would be a great chance to meet a lot of you local guys and maybe do a bit of good. Plus, I've got a Browning BPS shotgun I'd like to sell FTF in a private transaction

I'm Down.

This sort of civil disobedience warms my heart. It would have been even better during MLK weekend.

A right delayed is a right denied.

austinrealtor wrote:Who's willing to participate in helping organize a group of Austin area TexasCHLForum members to attend the Texas Gun Show on Saturday February 20 to show support for the gun show promotor and protest the BATFE and APD actions? Would be a great chance to meet a lot of you local guys and maybe do a bit of good. Plus, I've got a Browning BPS shotgun I'd like to sell FTF in a private transaction

feb 20 is my 10yr old sons birthday. What better gift to give him than to teach him to stand up for his rights. You can count my family in. Although I thought I read that HEB has decided that they will no longer allow gun shows at their facility.

Here is the part of the code that I believe APD is violating:

LGC 229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES. (a) A municipality may
not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership,
keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, ammunition,
or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipaii has
under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed for personal
or national defense, law enforcement, or another lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the limits of the
municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a business, or uses
at a business under the municipality's fire code, zoning ordinance, or
land-use regulations as long as the code, ordinance, or regulations are
not used to circumvent the intent of Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5)
of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an insurrection, riot,
or natural disaster if the municipality finds the regulations necessary to
protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of explosives to protect
public health and safety, except that 25 pounds or less of black powder
for each private residence and 50 pounds or less of black powder for
each retail dealer are not subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a
person licensed to cany a concealed handgun under Subchapter H,
Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental
body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic
event.
(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not apply if the
firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a
lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event and the firearm is of the
type commonly used in the activity.
(d) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(4) does not authorize
the seizure or confiscation of any firearm or ammunition from an individual
who is lawfully carrying or possessing the firearm or ammunition.

First, I do disagree wholeheartedly with the tactics being used here. I also have been to the Saxet shows, and was absolutely appalled at the number of illegal aliens in there buying guns. I saw guys at tables hollering "no papers" in Spanish to groups of them. Saxet turned a really blind eye to all this going on, and was asking for this kind of treatment. It sucks that the guy who took over for Saxet seems to be the one getting bit for things that happened before he was there.

30-30 wrote:First, I do disagree wholeheartedly with the tactics being used here. I also have been to the Saxet shows, and was absolutely appalled at the number of illegal aliens in there buying guns. I saw guys at tables hollering "no papers" in Spanish to groups of them. Saxet turned a really blind eye to all this going on, and was asking for this kind of treatment. It sucks that the guy who took over for Saxet seems to be the one getting bit for things that happened before he was there.

We are all getting "bit" by this. Not just the promoter. And just because some unscrupulous non-licensed collectors/dealers were willfully seeking to illegally sell to illegal aliens via private transactions DOES NOT mean any law enforcement agency has the statutory authority to say that now ALL private transactions MUST BE conducted via an FFL middleman.

Furthermore, it is not the job of a gun show promoter (Saxet or any other) to monitor or enforce any gun sale laws within a gun show they are promoting. If law enforcement wants to enforce these real laws that are on the books like not selling to felons and illegals (which I personally think they SHOULD enforce) then by all means they have the authority to do so within any gun show. But don't blame the promoter unless you have PROOF that the promoter willfully encouraged or did not report illegal gun sales in his show. Since neither BATFE nor APD nor any other LEA has filed charges against the Saxet promoter, much less the TGS promoter, then I don't think they have any proof, only innuendo and supposition. The promoters are not (necessarily) FFLs themselves. They are just business people who see an opportunity to use their marketing and business expertise to bring customers and vendors together under one roof for a weekend. This is not any different than any flea market or trade show. It is the responsibility of the dealers (licensed and otherwise) and the customers to follow the law.

I fully realize there are a lot of people - even some gun owners - who feel that all firearms transactions should be conducted through a licensed dealer and background checks run for EVERY transaction. That's a valid point, one with which I happen to disagree unless certain other conditions are met (too far off topic for this thread). But until all the people who think all gun sales should require licenses and background checks put together enough votes and/or political power to make their desires into a LAW, they need to stop harassing people who are not breaking any law.

There are already laws on the books that allow the law enforcement agencies to stop illegal gun purchases through legal means and not coercion. Are these means more difficult than making a blanket statement that all private sales are now banned? Of course they are. But since when did the cops saying "but this is too hard" amount to a hill of beans compared to our civil rights and the rule of law? Do cops get to beat a confession out of you because to follow Miranda is "too hard"? Do they get to search your home without a warrant because getting a warrant is "too hard"? HECK NO! So why is this any different?

austinrealtor wrote:

30-30 wrote:First, I do disagree wholeheartedly with the tactics being used here. I also have been to the Saxet shows, and was absolutely appalled at the number of illegal aliens in there buying guns. I saw guys at tables hollering "no papers" in Spanish to groups of them. Saxet turned a really blind eye to all this going on, and was asking for this kind of treatment. It sucks that the guy who took over for Saxet seems to be the one getting bit for things that happened before he was there.

...

Furthermore, it is not the job of a gun show promoter (Saxet or any other) to monitor or enforce any gun sale laws within a gun show they are promoting. If law enforcement wants to enforce these real laws that are on the books like not selling to felons and illegals (which I personally think they SHOULD enforce) then by all means they have the authority to do so within any gun show. But don't blame the promoter unless you have PROOF that the promoter willfully encouraged or did not report illegal gun sales in his show.

This is exactly correct. Saxet is not an FFL dealer. The dealers have exactly the same legal responsibilities whether they're dealing at a Saxet show, a Texas Gun Shows show, their brick-and-mortar store, or via their local classifieds. This is true whether they're FFLs, or private sellers. The gun show promoter has zero legal responsibility for the conduct of vendors. Matter of fact, they can't be responsible, per ATF regulations that state the FFL holder is always responsible. The gun show promoter might be found civilly liable in a lawsuit, but that's a different matter.

If it was really going on that openly, I'd have expected the ATF or someone to run stings and catch people. You know, actual law enforcement.

If you catch, arrest, and convict people breaking the law, it tends to send out a message that, "hey, you can't get away with this here. That'd be much easier, and less sketchy than doing this "nusiance" garbage.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but this whole thing holds less than no water, and I'm disappointed I havn't seen anyone called on it yet.

Why try to organize something for a Feb 20th show that won't take place. HEB has apparently said there will no further shows at this location, period.

If the promoter is able to locate another venue in time for a February show, it will probably not be in Austin.

As I said, I do NOT agree with the tactics used here to force this upon the gun show owner. I am very much for private sales, and despise the ATF.

As for the Saxet show, it was quite obvious what was going on there. As far as Saxet not being responsible for the conduct of others in there, would you say the same thing if they were openly selling cocaine from the tables every show? You really think a bar owner that allowed folks to sell/use drugs openly in his bar would stay out of trouble by saying "hey, I just let them in here and sell them booze!"

Judging from the involvement of ICE, I would say there probably have been sting operations going on there for a while due to the illegals in there (if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck...). I've been going to gun shows since I was a kid, and I was really surprised at how bad this one was. The promoter allowing this stuff to continue for so long was simply foolish and looks bad upon the rest of us. Many times I had fellows there tell me their guns were higher priced than the FFLs because they were "better". When I asked how that could be true, they'd wink and tell me that it was because I didn't have to pass a background check.

Sorry if I'm not buying the "nothing bad ever goes on" line of thought, and I truly would like to see the Austin gun shows continue unfettered, but there was a bunch of shady dealing (or the appearance thereof) that was simply begging for trouble. Personally, if I were running the show myself, I'd only allow FFLs to have tables to sell guns (none needed for the junk/beef jerky vendors of course) simply from the fact that there are folks that seem to always be "looking to sell a few guns from their collections" every show, which leads to the ATF poking around more to bust them for operating as a dealer without a license (I don't know about now, but back in the day they just gave you an ultimatum to get an FFL, or they'd make your life miserable). Note that this wouldn't stop folks walking around and selling/buying to each other, it would just cut down on the shadier folks at the shows.

30-30, I agree with all of your points except for resticting sellers to be FFL. Just as I would not restrict CHL from entering an establishment of mine. It's a right, it's the law, a privilege, however you want to put it. Making sure that people who aren't allowed to purchase guns, don't purchase guns is the goal. Making the law abiding do the sacrificing rather than going after the criminals, is too common of a practice. The solution is not so easy because of the "sanctuary city" syndrome alive and well in Austin. There are solutions, but nobody, not even the NRA or TSRA as far as I can see, is focusing on them.

30-30 wrote:As I said, I do NOT agree with the tactics used here to force this upon the gun show owner. I am very much for private sales, and despise the ATF.

As for the Saxet show, it was quite obvious what was going on there. As far as Saxet not being responsible for the conduct of others in there, would you say the same thing if they were openly selling cocaine from the tables every show? You really think a bar owner that allowed folks to sell/use drugs openly in his bar would stay out of trouble by saying "hey, I just let them in here and sell them booze!"

Someone openly selling cocaine in a bar is not a good analogy. First of all, most bars are small enough you can see/hear most everything that goes on from the bar. The Saxet gun show took up a space the size of a half a Sam's Club warehouse. Even if it WAS the promoter's responsibility, which it is not, how is he supposed to police this? Isn't it the police department's job to police illegal activity?

Also, it's a stretch to say illegal gun sales went on "openly" at Saxet show. I attended nearly every Saxet show last year and I didn't see any of this. Sure some of the non-FFL "collectors" tout "no paperwork" because, let's face it, it is a selling point, and not necessarily for illegal sales. Some law-abiding folks are just more fearful of the gubment or believe background checks and paperwork infringe on their 2A RKBA. I never once heard a seller saying "no paperwork" in Spanish to Hispanic customers, but then I don't speak Spanish so how would I know?

As 06nop said, Austin is a "sanctuary city" and APD does not arrest illegals or even ask them for ID. There is a "Mexican flea market" right next door to the gun show. If APD doesn't ask for ID and let's illegals roam free, why are they harassing private gun sellers for not checking ID?

But the bigger point in all this is that it is NOT the gun show promoter's job to enforce Federal gun laws. If the promoter knew of illegal sales and didn't report them or looked the other way or actively encouraged them, then he would already be under arrest.

30-30 wrote:but there was a bunch of shady dealing (or the appearance thereof) that was simply begging for trouble. Personally, if I were running the show myself, I'd only allow FFLs to have tables to sell guns (none needed for the junk/beef jerky vendors of course) simply from the fact that there are folks that seem to always be "looking to sell a few guns from their collections" every show, which leads to the ATF poking around more to bust them for operating as a dealer without a license (I don't know about now, but back in the day they just gave you an ultimatum to get an FFL, or they'd make your life miserable). Note that this wouldn't stop folks walking around and selling/buying to each other, it would just cut down on the shadier folks at the shows.

The appearance of crime, or even crime itself, is NOT a good enough reason to infringe the rights of every law-abiding participant. Lots of people use handguns to commit crime. Having a handgun on your person gives many people the appearance you intend to commit a crime. Therefore all handguns should be banned, right? How is your logic here any different?

And why do non-FFL collectors seem so "shady" to you? Are they any more shady than someone who sells 3 or 4 guns here on TexasCHLForum.com or on TexasGunTrader.com ? Guns are a very personal product to purchase. A gun owner needs to be completely comfortable and confident in the gun(s) he/she owns, especially if used for self defense, hunting, or any other activity other than general plinking. But, unlike cars, you can't really test drive a gun. Sure, you can rent a gun at the range and then buy a similar model. But you can't test drive the actual gun you're going to purchase (unless you're purchasing a used gun FTF and seller agrees to it). So, many people buy a lot of guns before they find the gun(s) they like best and are most comfortable and confident to own/use. What are we supposed to do with all the guns we ended up not liking? Turn them in to Dallas PD or LAPD for food stamps or teddy bears?

By forcing all sellers to use an FFL middleman, APD/ATF not only are forcing all transactions to be recorded but they're also hindering free commerce by forcing law-abiding citizens to use a middleman to complete a transaction, thus ensuring the middleman gets his cut of the deal, and ensuring that no individual seller will be able to venture far from the pricing set by the FFLs. Best analogy I've heard relating to this is how would you like it if the government forced you to use a real estate agent to sell your home? I'm a Realtor and even I would be against that; and most FFLs are against an end to private party sales.

nitrogen wrote:If it was really going on that openly, I'd have expected the ATF or someone to run stings and catch people. You know, actual law enforcement.

There are two possibilities. The ATF is a bunch of liars and the agency should be disbanded. The ATF is incompetent and the the agency should be disbanded.