Flying Over The Cukoo's Nest

[JNMAR]

No, but it's a big red flag. A majority of the time living conditions like this are indicative of either criminal activity, primarily drug use, or mental problems.

Keith, you know someone had to do it, so it might as well be me...
Isn't that profiling?
Aren't we (the government) forbidden from profiling the 25 year old Muslim who is boarding a plane with no luggage?

While I agree wholeheartedly that certain factors are just that, factors, or indicative of certain activities, I just wish we (the government) would do that when it really makes sense (see above)

Whoa...haven't you somehow attributed the wrong quoter to the quoted quote?...or sumpthin like that

[VoiceofReason]

I am glad to see some common sense comments on this thread.

I wonder about the media playing up the “Christian” angle on this. These people are not Christian no matter what they called themselves.

It also seems the threat is over stated. Granted they could have caused the death of many innocent people and law enforcement officers but they are/were not a threat to national security.

They were a handful of deluded discontented people that had/have greatly over estimated the support they would receive from the American public. I don’t think there is any danger of the U.S. Government being overthrown in the foreseeable future.

I also don’t think we should allow this to divert our attention from the problems at the Mexico border and South of it. That is the real threat to national security.

[Keith B]

These types ARE a threat and need to be dealt with in a proper manner. I don't care if they claim religious, political or just personal agendas, they are domestic terrorists, plain an simple. Tim McVey, Ted Kazinski, people who mail anthrax, abortion clinic bombers, ELF, even those that are placing bombs in mailboxes are all terrorists, even though they have different agendas. If you don't believe they are terrorists, see the official definitions:

ter·ror·ist   
–noun
1.a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
2.a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
3.(formerly) a member of a political group in Russia aiming at the demoralization of the government by terror.
4.an agent or partisan of the revolutionary tribunal during the Reign of Terror in France.

ter·ror·ism   
–noun
1.the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2.the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

[Teamless]

attributed the wrong quoter to the quoted quote?...

Yes I did, sorry about that, it was "Casingpoint"

Nice catch there

[frazzled]

These types ARE a threat and need to be dealt with in a proper manner. I don't care if they claim religious, political or just personal agendas, they are domestic terrorists, plain an simple. Tim McVey, Ted Kazinski, people who mail anthrax, abortion clinic bombers, ELF, even those that are placing bombs in mailboxes are all terrorists, even though they have different agendas. If you don't believe they are terrorists, see the official definitions:

ter·ror·ist   
–noun
1.a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
2.a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
3.(formerly) a member of a political group in Russia aiming at the demoralization of the government by terror.
4.an agent or partisan of the revolutionary tribunal during the Reign of Terror in France.

ter·ror·ism   
–noun
1.the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2.the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

[VoiceofReason]

Keith,

Please read my post again buddy.

I did not say they were not terrorists. I agree with you that they need to be dealt with along with all other terrorists foreign or domestic. What I was saying is that they pose no real threat to the government. In other words, it is ridiculous for seven or twenty fools to believe they can bring about the downfall of the United States Government, unless they have a majority of the population behind them.

Also I object to the media playing up the angle that these idiots are “Christian”. They may claim to be, but they are far from being Christian. I have seen enough Christian bashing without the media trying to use this to insinuate all Christians are right-wing extremists.

I also believe we have a much larger threat South of, and along this side of the Mexican border from the drug cartels that we are not adequately addressing.

I may not have made myself very clear in my post.

[boomerang]

Also I object to the media playing up the angle that these idiots are “Christian”. They may claim to be, but they are far from being Christian. I have seen enough Christian bashing without the media trying to use this to insinuate all Christians are right-wing extremists.

Why do you say they're not Christian? Do you know them personally? I certainly hope you're not basing your opinion solely on the same media whose accuracy and objectivity you're questioning.

[VoiceofReason]

If they were in fact planning to kill a police officer then bomb a funeral, how could they be Christian?

They labeled themselves “Christian”.

CNN” “The group says on its Web site that Hutaree means "Christian warrior" and proclaims on its home page, "Preparing for the end time battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive."”.

I did not know Timothy McVey personally but I know he was a terrorist and murderer of innocent men, women and children. I did not see him executed first hand either. All I can do is rely on the media for the fact that he is dead.

I criticize the “main stream media” for painting all Christians as “right wing, gun toting, radicals” every chance they get.

Also thanks to the left leaning media, the word “patriot” or the term “patriot group” has taken on a similar meaning.

I am not even going to get into how the left leaning media paints the NRA or those with a CHL.

I am a Christian and a patriot with a CHL. I would not even think of doing what they planned to do, and I don’t know a true Christian that would.

I criticize the “main stream media” for their bias.

[Keith B]

I think the difference here is you are claiming they are not 'Christians. However, they claim they are a 'Christian' organization vs. a Jewish, Muslim or other religiously affiliated organization. I understand what you were implying.

And with that said, religion is not allowed to be discussed in the Off-Topic section, so the conversation on that aspect drops.

And, as far as being a threat to the government, yes they can be. Tim McVey and Terry Nichols were just two individuals, but they seriously damaged the government. They few hijackers who wreaked havoc on 9/11 damaged the government by causing the economy to take a major nose dive, among other things. While they may be small in number, don't be fooled that the ideologies of a few, when taken to the extremest levels and played out, are not a threat to the government and our way of life.

[frazzled]

I think the difference here is you are claiming they are not 'Christians. However, they claim they are a 'Christian' organization vs. a Jewish, Muslim or other religiously affiliated organization. I understand what you were implying.

And with that said, religion is not allowed to be discussed in the Off-Topic section, so the conversation on that aspect drops.

And, as far as being a threat to the government, yes they can be. Tim McVey and Terry Nichols were just two individuals, but they seriously damaged the government. They few hijackers who wreaked havoc on 9/11 damaged the government by causing the economy to take a major nose dive, among other things. While they may be small in number, don't be fooled that the ideologies of a few, when taken to the extremest levels and played out, are not a threat to the government and our way of life.

I'd proffer "threat to the government" is not a useful standard. Short of the China/USSR there is no capable threat to the US government. Except for Leichtenstein of course, you can't trust those Leichtensteinians to not try something.

[Keith B]

Let's be clear. They would not be able to overthrow the government in a hostile takeover. Neither would al-Qaida, The Taliban or even China or Mexico as they currently stand. However, these events chip away at our governmental base and impact us greatly over time, and can eventually lead to the collapse of a government. Add these to the way things are going today in Washington, it may not be long until our government is so trashed that no one would WANT to take it over.

(Maybe I should move to Lichtenstein and that way I can be on the winning side when they invade!! )

[KD5NRH]

it may not be long until our government is so trashed that no one would WANT to take it over.

My theory is that it has been well past the point where anyone worthwhile would want to take it over for some time.

[Kythas]

You should always Worry when the Goverment starts "Rounding Up" people.
I wonder what gave them away, was it a Plant? Wire tapping? SOmeone sold them out?
I also wonder why they didnt "Fight it out" seems they went pretty peacefully.

I saw in the news that an FBI agent was undercover in the organization. I'm pretty sure with an undercover agent in the mix he had information that there was some sort of imminent "action" which required the FBI to move against them. This will probably all come out in the indictment if it isn't sealed.

Oftentimes when the FBI has an undercover operation they'll pull the plug on it and make arrests if they believe there is an imminent threat to the public.

[VoiceofReason]

Let's be clear. They would not be able to overthrow the government in a hostile takeover. Neither would al-Qaida, The Taliban or even China or Mexico as they currently stand. However, these events chip away at our governmental base and impact us greatly over time, and can eventually lead to the collapse of a government. Add these to the way things are going today in Washington, it may not be long until our government is so trashed that no one would WANT to take it over.

(Maybe I should move to Lichtenstein and that way I can be on the winning side when they invade!! )

I understand your point and agree. I wasn’t looking at the larger picture.

Lichtenstein would not have to invade to win. All they would have to do is declare war and attack. After the U.S. won, we would spend billions helping them rebuild bigger & better.

[Kythas]

Let's be clear. They would not be able to overthrow the government in a hostile takeover. Neither would al-Qaida, The Taliban or even China or Mexico as they currently stand. However, these events chip away at our governmental base and impact us greatly over time, and can eventually lead to the collapse of a government. Add these to the way things are going today in Washington, it may not be long until our government is so trashed that no one would WANT to take it over.

(Maybe I should move to Lichtenstein and that way I can be on the winning side when they invade!! )

I understand your point and agree. I wasn’t looking at the larger picture.

Lichtenstein would not have to invade to win. All they would have to do is declare war and attack. After the U.S. won, we would spend billions helping them rebuild bigger & better.

The Mouse that Roared http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared