TexasCHLforum.com

Aren't K-12 under a federal no gun legislation?

Purplehood wrote:

frazzled wrote:

austinrealtor wrote:

frazzled wrote:I vote #3.

1. Its more relevant to the issue of CHLers as there's more there. Columbine to the contrary, public schools are safer than your average college campus.

2. I'm much more ambivalent about public schools. It definitely clouds the issue a bit to me.

Curious .....

Why is the "public school" (and I assume you mean K-12 grades since you're OK with college campus carry) issue clouded for you and why does the supposed relative safety of one venue mean it should be excluded from legal carry? A police department charity drive with 25 armed police officers handing out goodies to school children who bring in canned goods for the needy in a grocery store parking lot is even safer than your average elementary school, but I'm legally allowed to carry there.

1. I am less keen on a bunch of adults around my kids with firearms, even CHLers. Simple math. I am concerned the chance of one of the little demon seed can get a ahold of it is higher than the chances the adult is going to defend my kids from a BG.
This is balanced by the efficacy of a school employee being there to stop a Columbine cold.
2. I've also seen one too many CHLers that shouldn't have a CHL to begin with to feel safe with them around my kids. Odds are low but its a math thing again. I view most of the posters on this board as more up to speed as it were, but I've been at the range with too many yahoos who achieved CHL status to be comfortable in this context.

I should posit this by, as far as my kids are concerned I don't recognize anyone else having rights, when it comes to the safety of my kids. CHLs are for adults to protect themselves. I'll be honest and state I don't care if you are protected or not when it statistically increases the chances of harm to my children.

3. Again I'll not I'm very ambivalent on this one. As such I'd keep it to college campus carry where everyone involved is an adult.

I see your point Frazzled. I too have a child in public school. But I wander around the house and all around town in his company while carrying. No mishaps. I also agree with your take on how many yahoos are out there carrying CHLs and having IQ's lower than the caliber of their firearms. But I cannot let that emasculate my ability to protect myself and my loved ones. So I would respectfully have to disagree with campus restrictions of any sort.

And I agree with you purple, but thats kind of my point. Its not you and I at the school generally. Its our kids with other adults. I don't know them. I sure don't trust them.

Texas may not be able to change much for primary through high school, because Federal law covers them.

LarryH wrote:Texas may not be able to change much for primary through high school, because Federal law covers them.

What about Harrold ISD? I think the school board only had to approve it.

WICHITA FALLS — One year ago, David Thweatt made a decision so controversial and groundbreaking the story about it sped around the world.

The superintendent of the isolated Harrold Independent School District, about 30 miles northwest of here, made history last August when he and his school board decided to allow select teachers and staff members at the 110-student school to carry guns on campus — a first for Texas and the nation.

...

In the year since that historic decision, a gun was never brandished or fired at the school. There were no problems, Thweatt said.

...

A deputy had peered inside and “saw something in the walls and windows and called for backup,” Thweatt said. “They made it to the abandoned house in 15 minutes. We had figured it would take 18 to 20 minutes in a typical situation.”

Had that been an armed intruder at his school, response time would have been too slow.

...

Harrold students, who grew up on ranches and in the middle of the North Texas gun culture, were unperturbed by the school district’s new gun policy.

“The kids just laughed about it,” Thweatt said.

...

According to Barbara Williams with the Texas Association of School Boards, Harrold remains the only Texas school district with a guns-on-campus policy.

...

... She was even called by the Dr. Phil show, who asked her to help plan a show on the topic because they were so fascinated by it. She refused.

To her, it was so obvious as to be a non-issue. Dr. Phil, who claims to be a Texan, should know that, she said.

frazzled wrote:

austinrealtor wrote:

frazzled wrote:I vote #3.

1. Its more relevant to the issue of CHLers as there's more there. Columbine to the contrary, public schools are safer than your average college campus.

2. I'm much more ambivalent about public schools. It definitely clouds the issue a bit to me.

Curious .....

Why is the "public school" (and I assume you mean K-12 grades since you're OK with college campus carry) issue clouded for you and why does the supposed relative safety of one venue mean it should be excluded from legal carry? A police department charity drive with 25 armed police officers handing out goodies to school children who bring in canned goods for the needy in a grocery store parking lot is even safer than your average elementary school, but I'm legally allowed to carry there.

1. I am less keen on a bunch of adults around my kids with firearms, even CHLers. Simple math. I am concerned the chance of one of the little demon seed can get a ahold of it is higher than the chances the adult is going to defend my kids from a BG.
This is balanced by the efficacy of a school employee being there to stop a Columbine cold.
2. I've also seen one too many CHLers that shouldn't have a CHL to begin with to feel safe with them around my kids. Odds are low but its a math thing again. I view most of the posters on this board as more up to speed as it were, but I've been at the range with too many yahoos who achieved CHL status to be comfortable in this context.

I should posit this by, as far as my kids are concerned I don't recognize anyone else having rights, when it comes to the safety of my kids. CHLs are for adults to protect themselves. I'll be honest and state I don't care if you are protected or not when it statistically increases the chances of harm to my children.

3. Again I'll not I'm very ambivalent on this one. As such I'd keep it to college campus carry where everyone involved is an adult.

Frazzled I respect your opinion and greatly appreciate your willingness to post it here

My problem with it is that by you forcing me to disarm to make you feel safer about your kids, you make me feel less safe about my kids. One of the most "uneasy" moments I have in any day is picking up my kids from pre-school unarmed and going through the long process of walking out the the parking lot, putting them both in the car, strapping them in their car seats etc. I'm a SITTING DUCK for about 5-10 minutes. Is it LIKELY that I'll be acosted at that exact moment? No. But it's not likely that I'll EVER need to use a gun in self-defense, so why carry one at all?

And before anyone says "just put your gun back in your holster when you get to the parking lot" - try that with a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old in a busy parking lot - if I don't have a tight grip on BOTH of them then I run the greater risk of one of them darting into the busy parking lot.

Also being forced to unconceal in my car every day puts me at unreasonable risk of someone seeing my gun and calling in "Man with a gun" to the police. I'm very discreet about it, but it's impossible to unconceal in a car without SOME possibility of being seen.

I fully understand the very real fear of "guns near children" but why does that fear trump my fear of being unarmed and vulnerable around my own children?

I voted for it to have everything in it, but that is strategy. Tactically, it will only pass in little steps, so we should start with small steps like allowing CHL's at colleges and universities.

frazzled wrote: And I agree with you purple, but thats kind of my point. Its not you and I at the school generally. Its our kids with other adults. I don't know them. I sure don't trust them.

I've met a few LEO and soldiers that shouldn't be allowed to be armed also, fewer CHLers. My experience though, perhaps not the same for others. I believe the real danger and risk to the children is trusting their minds to strangers. What school systems do to our childrens brains is arguably more dangerous than a couple of CHLers I am more afraid of the guns carried by criminals into our schools than I am by CHLers.

As a high school teacher I voted for the last choice, all in. I don't think that should be the first step but I'd like to get there asap.

It's late and I'm going to be quick, and probably a little sloppy in my reasoning.

If you have kids in school you trust them everyday to adults. You trust them in my science classroom to be safe. Safe from outside harm and safe as we conduct class and experiments. You trust them to be safe around me. You trust the driver of the bus, the cafeteria ladies, the janitor, the crossing guard. You put your children in our trust everyday. It only takes a momentary lapse for any one of the dozens of people around your children everyday to harm your child unintentionally.

I am around children quite frequently outside of school and carry around them. I don't have a problem there anymore than I would at school.

I respect a parent's desire to protect their children but you also expect me to protect them and I take my responsibility to protect your children very seriously.

Yes there are crack pots that probably don't need a CHL. There are also bus drivers that shouldn't be driving, cafeterial ladies that can't read labels, and teachers that are a disgrace to the profession but that shouldn't disqualify a CHL holder from being able to protect themselves or those, if they choose, around them.

I'm not sure about the teachers in your area but most of the ones I know around here love and will protect your kids to the best of their ability. Add in the few that are responsible enough to a CHL and you have the makings of a very safe environment.

Its our kids with other adults. I don't know them. I sure don't trust them.

believe the real danger and risk to the children is trusting their minds to strangers. What school systems do to our childrens brains is arguably more dangerous than a couple of CHLers

And I personally take insult to the teacher/school bashing. We certainly have our fair share of incompetence and "bad teaching" but we get dumped on way too often. Society needs a scapegoat and the education system is a convienent one. Education is a product of society. If you don't like the way your school system works, change it, find another, or home school. If you are trusting your kids to strangers maybe you need to visit the school more often or quit sitting in the back of the auditorium on parent's night fidgiting with your cell phone and get into the school and get to know the "strangers" that YOU send your kids to for 8 hours a day. Nobody is kidnapping them. It is your choice.

I don't like everything in the education system either. That's why I moved to a school that aligns with my value system. It cost me almost half my salary and is about twice as much work but I am with my own son everyday and I can teach curriculum and values that I believe most everyone on this board would generally agree with. There also are a lot fewer "demon seeds". What are your kids worth? Will you vote in a new school board? Will you find another school or district, even if it means moving? Will you home school? If people aren't willing to do any of these things, then don't complain. You have choices and you made the very one you are complaining about.

Now see what happened. School carry and the educational system in one post got me all fired up.

I picked the last option. A private school, like any private business, should be allowed to post a 30.06 sign. However, any place off limits to CHL by law should be off limits to special investigators by law, and also to offduty Texas peace officers. If it's "safe" to allow a feeb or constable deputy to pick up his kid while armed, it's "safe" to allow a neural surgeon with a CHL to pick up his kid while armed.

troglodyte wrote:
And I personally take insult to the teacher/school bashing. We certainly have our fair share of incompetence and "bad teaching" but we get dumped on way too often. Society needs a scapegoat and the education system is a convienent one. Education is a product of society. If you don't like the way your school system works, change it, find another, or home school. If you are trusting your kids to strangers maybe you need to visit the school more often or quit sitting in the back of the auditorium on parent's night fidgiting with your cell phone and get into the school and get to know the "strangers" that YOU send your kids to for 8 hours a day. Nobody is kidnapping them. It is your choice.

I didn't intend to be offensive, or dumping on the school system, my point was simply that if we can trust our children's minds to the folks in the school district, we can surely trust the CHLers a bit more. Dropping our kids off for 6 hours day to have them educated seems magnitudes riskier than letting the children mingle with CHLers. After all one of the reasons for a CHL program is to to help make it Safer for Texans. All things being equal, it isn't a stretch to claim that it is safer to be with a bunch of CHLers than it is to be with a bunch of people who are not. People who don't have guns or don't like guns scare me. more than going to an event with hundreds of CHLers, and my kids now grown, were safer at the range than at any public school.

I have no problem with campus carry, but I prefer to carry off campus.

my point was simply that if we can trust our children's minds to the folks in the school district, we can surely trust the CHLers a bit more.

Liberty, I apologize. I did not pick up on this in your previous post. One of the perils of the faceless Internet...and probalby just as much...being tired and testy.

I keep waiting to hear the "rest of the story" from Harrold ISD. I guess no news is good news in this case.

My vote is for legal "concealed" carry everywhere. If open carry ever became law here in Texas I would need to adjust my vote. I do not want to have an open carry discussion in this thread, just do not see any logic in having an open display of firearms on a school campus.

Salty1 wrote:My vote is for legal "concealed" carry everywhere. If open carry ever became law here in Texas I would need to adjust my vote. I do not want to have an open carry discussion in this thread, just do not see any logic in having an open display of firearms on a school campus.

I tend to agree. The "ideal" solution in my mind would be OC everywhere, with CC in restricted areas such as school premises and the like.

Keep in mind that I really consider that a pipe-dream, and that is unfortunate.

troglodyte wrote:I keep waiting to hear the "rest of the story" from Harrold ISD. I guess no news is good news in this case.

I'd love to hear any news on Harrold as well. Has anyone looked up that town on Google Maps? It's a microdot! (No disrespect). No surprise they were able to make that policy change. It's harder when you get into a more populous, urban area. Still, it'll be a (tiny) positive data point for the 2011 Austin legislative session. That, and the CO pro-campus carry momentum.

Not that anything that happens outside of Texas could possibly influence our own legislators