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Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:38 pm
by The Annoyed Man
lkd wrote:Nobody should go to another foreign country and expect them to conform to your culture, but Americans are not the only ones to behave in such a manner, I assure you.
Actually, throughout much of Europe, Americans are regarded as brash and unsophisticated, but largely harmless and well-meaning. The French though, outside of France, are genuinely loathed for being truly culturally arrogant. Americans are viewed as being culturally ignorant but eager to learn, rather than culturally arrogant as are the French.

I say this as someone whose first spoken words were in French, who was born in a French colony, whose mother is French, and who has lived in Paris and gone to school in the French public school system.

As far as some sort of English-only movement, well, there isn't a language on the planet that hasn't been mutated to some degree or other by the absorption of words from other languages. Even the insular Académie française has failed to protect the French language as the French are seen in public wearing "un pair de blue jeans" as they go out of the city for "le weekend," listening to "le rock and roll" on their iPods. I expect English to be influenced by the languages of the other cultures into which it comes in contact, just as it happens to other languages.

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:58 am
by Texas Size 11
The Annoyed Man wrote:
lkd wrote:Nobody should go to another foreign country and expect them to conform to your culture, but Americans are not the only ones to behave in such a manner, I assure you.
Actually, throughout much of Europe, Americans are regarded as brash and unsophisticated, but largely harmless and well-meaning. The French though, outside of France, are genuinely loathed for being truly culturally arrogant. Americans are viewed as being culturally ignorant but eager to learn, rather than culturally arrogant as are the French.
One of my cousins is British and his wife is Italian. They live just north of London and this is about what they tell me. His wife always wants to ask questions about Americans because she cannot understand our mannerisms when abroad or when she visits us in the States. All in all, they like us despite our short-comigns and she really likes some of our cliches and trying to speak in an American accent.

Now, don't let either of them get started on the French. They are not too fond of them and their arrogance.

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:42 am
by The Annoyed Man
Texas Size 11 wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
lkd wrote:Nobody should go to another foreign country and expect them to conform to your culture, but Americans are not the only ones to behave in such a manner, I assure you.
Actually, throughout much of Europe, Americans are regarded as brash and unsophisticated, but largely harmless and well-meaning. The French though, outside of France, are genuinely loathed for being truly culturally arrogant. Americans are viewed as being culturally ignorant but eager to learn, rather than culturally arrogant as are the French.
One of my cousins is British and his wife is Italian. They live just north of London and this is about what they tell me. His wife always wants to ask questions about Americans because she cannot understand our mannerisms when abroad or when she visits us in the States. All in all, they like us despite our short-comigns and she really likes some of our cliches and trying to speak in an American accent.

Now, don't let either of them get started on the French. They are not too fond of them and their arrogance.
When I was 18, we went back to France for a summer vacation. Since my parents were both university professors who didn't work during the summer, and since my mother's side of the family still lives there, we were able to stay in my grandparents' homes in Paris and in Courçay - a tiny village in Touraine about 20 klicks east of Tours, right on the Loire river. During the month of July, my parents and my aunt went down to the Greek Islands and played around down there, while my two younger brothers and I took the entire month to tour a large part of France on bicycles. That's another story in itself.

In any case, my dad had a naturally olive skinned complexion, and when he tanned, he got darker than a chestnut. The three of them were visiting the ruins at Delphi, and my dad was resting on an ancient stone wall outside the entrance to the ruins while my mother and aunt were off exploring something. Now Dad is wearing a baggy old pair of brown corduroy pants, a very rustic old French fisherman's shirt, and one of those navy blue Greek sailor caps. In short, he looked like Zorba the colorful Greek local; and he's just sitting there, enjoying the sun and watching people walk by when a busload of French tourists drives up.

This guy and his wife pop out, and they see my dad sitting on that wall, and the husband tells his wife, "go sit next to that old [derogatory French expletive for "peasant"] on the wall there and I'll take your picture together. (Now, it should be noted that inside France's borders, that term for "peasant" would never be used because "Paysan" is an honorable life.) So this bourgeois matron plops her smug self-satisfied butt down on the wall next to my dad - never thinking to ask if it was OK to have her picture taken with him. What neither she nor her husband know is that my dad is married to a French woman, and he is 100% fluent in French. So he just smiles and nods at her, and waits until the exact moment that her husband takes the picture - at which point he says under his breath in flawless French so that only she can hear it, "Better to be a peasant than a [substitute expletive having to do with an oedipal act]," just as her husband catchers her dismayed gasp on film.

It was perfect. She jumps up and scuttles off while her husband scolds my dad for being rude to his wife, without a thought for how rude he had just been to my dad. My dad used to just smile serenely when he told that story.

THAT is how the French are often perceived as tourists by the rest of Europe.

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:46 am
by RPB
Garage will be easier to spell ......... BARN. :mrgreen:

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:54 am
by WildBill
The Annoyed Man wrote:When I was 18, we went back to France for a summer vacation ...
Very funny story. Thanks for sharing.

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:54 am
by chartreuse
WildBill wrote:With the name "chartreuse" who are you to talk? :smilelol5:

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that the English language is as pure as a crib-house whore. It not only borrows words from other languages; it has on occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary."
-- James Davis Nicoll
It's a fair cop, guv, society's to blame. :lol:

Thanks for sourcing the quote.
The Annoyed Man wrote:THAT is how the French are often perceived as tourists by the rest of Europe.
TAM - that story reminds me of the time I landed at London Gatwick airport and was in line for immigration ahead of a French couple. The line was long and they spent the time uttering disparaging remarks about England, quite loudly and in English, just to ensure that we could all understand them. Eventually, I reached the head of the line and the exchange with the Border Officer went something like this:

Him: How's it going?
Me: OK thanks, apart from having to listen to that French couple mocking our country.
Him: Which couple would that be?
Me: The two who'll be in front of you immediately after me.
Him: Riiight...

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:39 am
by OldCannon
chartreuse wrote:
Him: How's it going?
Me: OK thanks, apart from having to listen to that French couple mocking our country.
Him: Which couple would that be?
Me: The two who'll be in front of you immediately after me.
Him: Riiight...
Hehe...as Sheldon* would say, "Bazinga!" :smilelol5:



*For those uninitiated: A character from the popular TV series "The Big Bang Theory"

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:44 am
by seamusTX
lkd wrote:It is not words that people seek to ban, it is culture. A language creates (or carries) a very specific cultural identification....
That is exactly correct. It's impossible to learn or speak another language without being exposed to the culture that that language is embedded in. Even people who learn Asian martial arts get a hint of this.
It's one thing to be an observer of other cultures, choosing to participate or not, it's another thing entirely to be required to assimilate it.
I don't see that English speakers are being required to do anything. Even the infamous "Press 1 for English" has been retired for the most part. Voice messaging systems now use English as the default.

There is an English-only movement. It goes back to 19th century, when the U.S. started absorbing non-English-speaking populations. The U.S. English organization is decades old and was started by immigrants who were not native speakers of English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-only_movement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.us-english.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I should add (if it's not obvious) that failing to learn standard English is a sure-fire route to a life of poverty and marginalization.

There was a time when Chinese immigrants were called "The Yellow Peril." Irish and Italian Catholic immigrants were considered threats to Protestant American culture. We know all about Jews. All these issues come and go and are largely forgotten except by history buffs.

Salsa has outsold ketchup in the U.S. for some years now. Ironically, ketchup is a foreign word, though its origin is uncertain.

- Jim

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:10 pm
by bayouhazard
Great. So let's stop offering voting in foreign languages. If someone is a legitimate US citizen, they should know enough English to vote. Similarly, I would expect to learn words like El Presidente if I wanted to vote in Venezuela or Costa Rica.

Let's also teach non-linguistic classes in English. Repeated studies show imersion is the best route to fluency. Let's not handicap and marginalize the children of immigrants by denying them the full imersion in English that will facilitate their participation in The American Dream.

I say these things as someone with one (legal) immigrant parent.

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:14 pm
by mgood
tacticool wrote:Don't forget the technology words that come from ancient Greek and Latin roots.
Lots of musical terms are Italian.

And for things related to this forum:

Parabellum, according to Wikipedia, "The word Parabellum is a noun coined by German arms maker Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken and is derived from the Latin saying si vis pacem, para bellum, meaning If you wish for peace, prepare for war."
And from http://www.etymonline.com/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :
Caliber or calibre may come from Arabic.
Rifle probably comes from French.
Bullet from the French boulette.
Cartridge from the French cartouche.
Pistol could come from German, Czech, or French.
Ballistic - Greek.
Conceal - probably old French.
Defense - from old French, and further back, from Latin.
Automatic - from Greek.
Revolver - revolve - from Latin.

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:22 pm
by Texas Size 11
bayouhazard wrote:Great. So let's stop offering voting in foreign languages. If someone is a legitimate US citizen, they should know enough English to vote. Similarly, I would expect to learn words like El Presidente if I wanted to vote in Venezuela or Costa Rica.

Let's also teach non-linguistic classes in English. Repeated studies show imersion is the best route to fluency. Let's not handicap and marginalize the children of immigrants by denying them the full imersion in English that will facilitate their participation in The American Dream.

I say these things as someone with one (legal) immigrant parent.
Both of my parents are legal immigrants and they made sure that I knew English. So much to the point that I cannot speak either of their native languages.

Come to think of it, I grew up in the South so I really don't speak regular English that well either.

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:57 pm
by mgood
Texas Size 11 wrote:Come to think of it, I grew up in the South so I really don't speak regular English that well either.
:lol:

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:37 pm
by Fangs
I read this somewhere:

"I was in a shop in Britain, when an American tourist in front of me tried to pay for something in US dollars. The shop keeper politely told her that this was Britain, and you can't use U.S. dollars here. The lady replied... 'But I had no problems in other third world countries'."

:biggrinjester:

Re: The English-only movement

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:06 pm
by VoiceofReason
Fangs wrote:I read this somewhere:

"I was in a shop in Britain, when an American tourist in front of me tried to pay for something in US dollars. The shop keeper politely told her that this was Britain, and you can't use U.S. dollars here. The lady replied... 'But I had no problems in other third world countries'."

:biggrinjester:
"rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol"