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A front porch and driveway, unless blocked by fence and gate has been determined to be a little different when it comes to private property. It is private property, but since the public is expected to have limited access to these areas they are treated different than the backyard or even sides of homes. WildBill mentioned that an extremely recent decision that allows LE to enter a driveway to place a GPS unit on a car is not trespassing and therefore legal. People walk across our driveways come up to our front doors nearly everyday and cannot be arrested.

It is horrible what many utility companies are doing to people's trees, but people shouldn't have let the trees get so out of control to be in the way in the first place. Do they want a nice big tree or electricity?

As far as OC in our front yards go, the key ingredient is the intent, as SRothstein, Charles, and others have said. It is clear that this guy's intention was to intimidate or alarm. The article doesn't say if the man was arrested or cited, but if he wasn't he's lucky. I think the police may have taken into account his age and the circumstances and advised him that this is not a good idea and they would probably arrest him if he did it again.

This man is technically guilty of a crime. He even admitted that the entire purpose of his actions were to intimidate the Oncor workers. Ive read other stories where this company absolutely brutalizes trees and cuts back much farther than needed but I believe they are contracted by the city. Complaints should be directed to the city and to the company.

Another and better solution would be that one could hire their own arborist to keep the trees trimmed and out of the power lines if they are unhappy about the service the city provides.

It sounds like when they disarmed the homeowners after Katrina for looter safety.

Kythas wrote:So if I'm sitting in my living room but have the shades drawn so someone walking on the street outside can see in, is my living room now a "public place"?

Pretty much describes the situation last year where a Virginia man was convicted for Indecent Exposure by being inside his house with no curtains on the window. Makes one wonder about the division between public and private not always being obvious.

gmckinl wrote:

Kythas wrote:So if I'm sitting in my living room but have the shades drawn so someone walking on the street outside can see in, is my living room now a "public place"?

Pretty much describes the situation last year where a Virginia man was convicted for Indecent Exposure by being inside his house with no curtains on the window. Makes one wonder about the division between public and private not always being obvious.

I just looked for and could not find the outcome of that case, I'm pretty sure that it was overturned on appeal. IMHO, if I had been that guy, I would have swore out a complaint against that lady and her kid for trespass since she admitted, under oath, that she cut through his property without permission. It is unlikely that the LEOs would have done anything about that complaint, however.

I've seen this one cut both ways. Our neighbor (we shared a driveway in a Phila suburb) did things to try to intimate the former owners of our house and they packed up and moved. When that same neighbor did the same things to us, the LE response was that they couldn't do anything about it because it was private property. Go figure. I guess I shouldn't expect the laws to be fairly or evenly applied.

Kythas wrote:

bronco78 wrote:

Grammy wrote: How do you make the distinction between "private property" & "public place"

Penal Code
Sec. 1.07. Definitions
(40) "Public place" means any place to which the public or a substantial group of the public has access and includes, but is not limited to, streets, highways, and the common areas of schools, hospitals, apartment houses, office buildings, transport facilities, and shops.

I would counter that my front porch is not a "public place", in that the public does not have access to it, but may only access it with my permission.

By your argument, any area visible from the street or public sidewalk is a "public place". So if I'm sitting in my living room but have the shades drawn so someone walking on the street outside can see in, is my living room now a "public place"?

It could be. There was a court case where a man was charged with exposure for being in his living room naked with the curtains open. There was some debate about whether or not he intended to display. The same applies to your yard. Courts have held that access by the public includes view. As LT pointed out, a front yard, even fenced in, in a city is much more likely to be considered a public place than a farm in the country.

Bird of Prey, as you can see, the physical access might not be required in many cases, as vision could count as access. Think of where you could legally stand nude as kids go by, and if you would feel safe doing that in your front yard, you might not be in a public place. If you think people would complain and the cops would come handle it, even by making you dress, you are in a public place.

RPBrown, in general it is not illegal to carry a long gun in a public place. The intent to alarm is the key factor. So your rifle rack in your truck is legal as it is not deliberately trying to alarm others.

Jester, the difference is the security guard is not trying to alarm the general public, but actually trying to make them feel more secure (they aren't but he tries to make them feel that way). This man was trying to scare people who were legally on his property (easement means they were legal) and legally trying to trim the tree away from the power lines. How far from the lines they need to be is always a question, but the law allows for quite a bit of leeway in these types of things. I can trim it back so it clears the line by an inch, and have to come back next month again, or I can rim it way back so I only need to come once a year, etc. This is where I think he may have broken the law, and I am not 100% sure of this yet.

New thought!

If LE and security guards will wear or carry a firearm to try to make the general public FEEL more secure doesn't that also conversely mean that they are trying to make some people, bad guys, intimidated or alarmed? Not that it's a bad thing. After all, one of the theories about OC is not that they will be able to stop a crime in progress, but that it will prevent a crime from even happening by intimidating a potential bad guy. Isn't that also the premise for an increased police presence in any area?

C-dub wrote:New thought!

If LE and security guards will wear or carry a firearm to try to make the general public FEEL more secure doesn't that also conversely mean that they are trying to make some people, bad guys, intimidated or alarmed? Not that it's a bad thing. After all, one of the theories about OC is not that they will be able to stop a crime in progress, but that it will prevent a crime from even happening by intimidating a potential bad guy. Isn't that also the premise for an increased police presence in any area?

Sounds exactly like sitting on your front porch with a shotgun in your lap or mowing your hard with a holstered handgun.

If he was waving it around or pointing it at people that could be alarming to the general public, but sitting peacefully on your front porch with a firearm in a holster or in your lap or leaning against the house is alarming to the guilty. If the tree butchers were alarmed it's because they know in their hearts they're bad guys.

Based on the story, I don't see provable intent to intimidate, only intent to protect one's own private property. No innocent ought to feel any intimidation, only those with hostile intent.

Of course, I'm not a judge, lawyer, or DA, so I can't see thing that aren't there. (Or not see things that are.)

HankB, if I understand what you're saying, in that no innocent should feel intimidation, the tree trimmers should have gone right on with their work. They were just doing their jobs, performing the assigned tasks on a utility easement, completely within their responsibilities. Had I been one of the trimmers, I'm afraid I would have been intimidated. I would have exercised an option to trim elsewhere and let management deal with the situation.

While some may not have been intimidated in these circumstances, others may be. Who is right? Who really knows? That's what the courts and attorneys are for. Ugly situation no matter what.....

Personally, I tend to remain conscious of where I plant things. All my utilities are underground, and I do take that into consideration when planting trees and such. That includes the line of sight for drivers, as I live on a corner lot. I really appreciate the people that plant lovely shrubs and such that the only people that can see have to be driving monster trucks or semis so they can see over them.