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The circle representing the 1.someodd billion other muslims should be labeled as "Muslims who say they are a member of a religion of peace but turn a blind eye towards those who perpetrate murder of the innocents and also advocate strict adherence to the koran that says all infidels must convert or die".

My $0.02 worth.

Anygun the Christian infidel

Oldgringo wrote:

carlson1 wrote:Where is the "infidel" circle.

I think that would be the smaller one on the left? The one with you and me in it.

On the subject of perspective, Christians and Jews are not infidels according to Islam.

Ok ... I'll throw in a few cents worth. When arguments about some issue hinge on 'sensitivities' (even though they are legitimate) it will always end being lose-lose. No matter what is decided both sides will feel cheated in some way.

In America we live under a constitution and a body of law. In my view, building a church, mosque, or synagogue or whatever should be based on the rule of law not on peoples feelings. I am proud to live in a country where the rule of law (mostly) trumps. This is why we are able to carry ... because it's the law. Can you imagine what our gun laws would be if they were based on 'sensitivities' rather than our US Constitution.

If it is legal to build a mosque near 'ground zero' so be it whether we like it or not.

hangfour wrote:Can you imagine what our gun laws would be if they were based on 'sensitivities' rather than our US Constitution.

Yes I can. Is this a trick question?

tacticool wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:

carlson1 wrote:Where is the "infidel" circle.

I think that would be the smaller one on the left? The one with you and me in it.

On the subject of perspective, Christians and Jews are not infidels according to Islam.

I don't know what Koran you have been reading from.

Allah is the name of the only god in Islam. Allah is a pre-Islamic name coming from the compound Arabic word alilah which means the god, which is derived from al (the) ilah (deity). It was formerly the name of the chief god among the numerous idols (360) in the Kaaba in Mecca before Mohammed made them into monotheists. Today a Muslim is one who submits to the god Allah.

Islam means submission to Allah, but originally it meant that strength which characterized a desert warrior who, even when faced with impossible odds, would fight to the death for his tribe. According to the “Encyclopedia of Religion”, Allah corresponded to the Babylonian god Baal, and Arabs knew of him long before Mohammed worshipped him as the supreme god. Before Islam the Arabs recognized many gods and goddesses, each tribe had their own deity. There were also nature deities. Allah was the god of the local Quarish tribe, which was Mohammed’s tribe before he invented Islam to lead his people out of their polytheism. Allah was then known as the Moon god, who had three daughters who were viewed as intercessors for the people to Allah. Their names were Al-at, AL-uzza, and Al-manat, which were three goddesses; the first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah. Hubal was the chief god of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was a statue likness of a man whose body was made of red precious stones whose arms were made of gold.

The literal name of Mohammed’s father in Arabic is Abd Allah, while his uncle’s name was Obred Allah. These names show the devotion of Mohammed’s families’ pagan roots, and also prove that Allah was part of a polytheistic system of worship before Allah was made the supreme and only god from the other gods. This should be proof to the pre-Islamic root of the name of Allah to the Muslim. Remember they were pagans who used this name. He kept his family name above all the other names.

Mohammed made Allah into a single being who, unlike the Bible’s God who is called Father, who has no son. This god has never revealed himself to man; but revealed only his will. This god is so removed from man that it is impossible to know him in a personal way, he relates to man only through his will and law. It is a religion of obedience. Of the 99 names of the god of Islam, not one is “Father” or has a personal connation. The difference is not to be overlooked. No Muslim would ever consider being able to have a personal relationship with him, by talking to him, and loving him. Jesus taught the saved to pray “our Father which art in heaven” (Matthew 6:9) Throughout the Old Testament God was real to the prophets who had Him personally speak to them and they to him.

In Islam some state that if one memorizes the 99 names of Allah and repeats them he will get into paradise because these names give the believer power, making them conscious of God. Neither the Koran nor the Hadith speak of these names in such a way. The Suras in the Koran begin with “In the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful.” Yet, in practice Islam’s god is portrayed as stern, harsh, having compassion on those who are right and deals severely with those who do not.

While Muslims affirm Jesus’ virgin conception, they deny He had any pre-existence that would imply He is God. Muslims claim that the name Allah can be found in the Bible. Allah is not called Yahweh once in the Koran but neither is Yahweh called Allah in the Bible. So, they cannot be the same God. Neither is the word Elohim, which is applied to Yahweh over 2,500 times in the Bible used in the Koran. Neither is he called “I Am,”” which he said to Moses would be His name forever.

The God of the Bible identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jacobs’ name is later changed to the name Israel, being the Father of the 12 tribes of Israel. The God of the Bible calls Jerusalem the city of David and that the Messiah would descend from his lineage. Neither does the God of the Bible mention Mecca or Medina; but instead Jerusalem 800 times. Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran, which the Muslim calms as their own.

The God in the Bible is called the God of the Jews which is impossible with Allah. They are called His chosen people, but they are not Allah’s chosen. Allah commands the Muslim to not take the Jews or Christians as friends because they are infidels. Sura 5:51 distains the Jews. Mohammed said, “The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them.” (Mishkat Al Masabih Sh.M. Ashraf pp. 147, 721, 810-11, 1130).

So, how could Israel inherit the land or any of God’s promises from Allah, if he is their God? Clearly he is not the same God of the Bible.

The first Arabic translation of the Bible came into existence about the 9th century. Nowhere is the name of Allah found in the Old or New Testament. When Islam became the dominant political force people were coerced to use the name Allah for God or suffer the consequences from the hands of militant Muslims. Allah became the common name of God because of Islam’s dominance. The translators of the Bible gave in to the religious pressures and substituted Allah for Yahweh in the Arabic Bibles, but this is not the name of the God of the Hebrews, nor of the creator who made Heaven and earth, because of its source in paganism. His nature and attributes have only a few basic similarities and many more differences.




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tacticool wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:

carlson1 wrote:Where is the "infidel" circle.

I think that would be the smaller one on the left? The one with you and me in it.

On the subject of perspective, Christians and Jews are not infidels according to Islam.

Really? That takes a load off of my mind. So, who are the infidels?

Thank you carlson1. Good job!

I logged on for the sole reason to thank you, carlson1, for the informative post.

carlson1 wrote:

tacticool wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:

carlson1 wrote:Where is the "infidel" circle.

I think that would be the smaller one on the left? The one with you and me in it.

On the subject of perspective, Christians and Jews are not infidels according to Islam.

I don't know what Koran you have been reading from.

Allah is the name of the only god in Islam. Allah is a pre-Islamic name coming from the compound Arabic word alilah which means the god, which is derived from al (the) ilah (deity). It was formerly the name of the chief god among the numerous idols (360) in the Kaaba in Mecca before Mohammed made them into monotheists. Today a Muslim is one who submits to the god Allah.

Islam means submission to Allah, but originally it meant that strength which characterized a desert warrior who, even when faced with impossible odds, would fight to the death for his tribe. According to the “Encyclopedia of Religion”, Allah corresponded to the Babylonian god Baal, and Arabs knew of him long before Mohammed worshipped him as the supreme god. Before Islam the Arabs recognized many gods and goddesses, each tribe had their own deity. There were also nature deities. Allah was the god of the local Quarish tribe, which was Mohammed’s tribe before he invented Islam to lead his people out of their polytheism. Allah was then known as the Moon god, who had three daughters who were viewed as intercessors for the people to Allah. Their names were Al-at, AL-uzza, and Al-manat, which were three goddesses; the first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah. Hubal was the chief god of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was a statue likness of a man whose body was made of red precious stones whose arms were made of gold.

The literal name of Mohammed’s father in Arabic is Abd Allah, while his uncle’s name was Obred Allah. These names show the devotion of Mohammed’s families’ pagan roots, and also prove that Allah was part of a polytheistic system of worship before Allah was made the supreme and only god from the other gods. This should be proof to the pre-Islamic root of the name of Allah to the Muslim. Remember they were pagans who used this name. He kept his family name above all the other names.

Mohammed made Allah into a single being who, unlike the Bible’s God who is called Father, who has no son. This god has never revealed himself to man; but revealed only his will. This god is so removed from man that it is impossible to know him in a personal way, he relates to man only through his will and law. It is a religion of obedience. Of the 99 names of the god of Islam, not one is “Father” or has a personal connation. The difference is not to be overlooked. No Muslim would ever consider being able to have a personal relationship with him, by talking to him, and loving him. Jesus taught the saved to pray “our Father which art in heaven” (Matthew 6:9) Throughout the Old Testament God was real to the prophets who had Him personally speak to them and they to him.

In Islam some state that if one memorizes the 99 names of Allah and repeats them he will get into paradise because these names give the believer power, making them conscious of God. Neither the Koran nor the Hadith speak of these names in such a way. The Suras in the Koran begin with “In the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful.” Yet, in practice Islam’s god is portrayed as stern, harsh, having compassion on those who are right and deals severely with those who do not.

While Muslims affirm Jesus’ virgin conception, they deny He had any pre-existence that would imply He is God. Muslims claim that the name Allah can be found in the Bible. Allah is not called Yahweh once in the Koran but neither is Yahweh called Allah in the Bible. So, they cannot be the same God. Neither is the word Elohim, which is applied to Yahweh over 2,500 times in the Bible used in the Koran. Neither is he called “I Am,”” which he said to Moses would be His name forever.

The God of the Bible identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jacobs’ name is later changed to the name Israel, being the Father of the 12 tribes of Israel. The God of the Bible calls Jerusalem the city of David and that the Messiah would descend from his lineage. Neither does the God of the Bible mention Mecca or Medina; but instead Jerusalem 800 times. Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran, which the Muslim calms as their own.

The God in the Bible is called the God of the Jews which is impossible with Allah. They are called His chosen people, but they are not Allah’s chosen. Allah commands the Muslim to not take the Jews or Christians as friends because they are infidels. Sura 5:51 distains the Jews. Mohammed said, “The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them.” (Mishkat Al Masabih Sh.M. Ashraf pp. 147, 721, 810-11, 1130).

So, how could Israel inherit the land or any of God’s promises from Allah, if he is their God? Clearly he is not the same God of the Bible.

The first Arabic translation of the Bible came into existence about the 9th century. Nowhere is the name of Allah found in the Old or New Testament. When Islam became the dominant political force people were coerced to use the name Allah for God or suffer the consequences from the hands of militant Muslims. Allah became the common name of God because of Islam’s dominance. The translators of the Bible gave in to the religious pressures and substituted Allah for Yahweh in the Arabic Bibles, but this is not the name of the God of the Hebrews, nor of the creator who made Heaven and earth, because of its source in paganism. His nature and attributes have only a few basic similarities and many more differences.




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I thought Jesus was the son of God. And for that matter, aren't we all considered the children of God?

C-dub wrote:I thought Jesus was the son of God. And for that matter, aren't we all considered the children of God?

If you're Mormon or a few other lass populous religions, Jesus being the Son of God and all of us being children of God indicate equal status between us and Jesus. If you're Christian, those words mean different things as Jesus is one with the monotheistic one God in three divine Persons--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having no beginning and no end, while we have definite beginnings in time and space. If you're Jewish or Muslim, Jesus was a rabbi/teacher but not divine.

C-dub wrote:I thought Jesus was the son of God.

For Christians, yes.
For Muslims, Jesus (Issa) is only a prophet. Sure, he had a special birth by Mary, but he is in no way divine.

The understanding that Ishmael and Isaac were both sons of Abraham afforded the Jews (and the Christians) a measure of tolerance in early Islam, as they were also "People of The Book" (the Bible), but that tolerance eventually wore out.

That's about all I can add to carlson1's excellent precis on Islam.

UpTheIrons wrote:

C-dub wrote:I thought Jesus was the son of God.

For Christians, yes.
For Muslims, Jesus (Issa) is only a prophet. Sure, he had a special birth by Mary, but he is in no way divine.

The understanding that Ishmael and Isaac were both sons of Abraham afforded the Jews (and the Christians) a measure of tolerance in early Islam, as they were also "People of The Book" (the Bible), but that tolerance eventually wore out.

That's about all I can add to carlson1's excellent precis on Islam.

The tolerance has definitely wore out as evidenced by....you pick 'em.

Very interesting. I always wondered if and where Jesus fit into Islam. I had not thought about the Mormans.

I do know that Jewish people do not think that Jesus is the son of God. Or maybe that's the Orthodox Jews. I get confused about all the different theologies and what the differences are. Often times the differences seem very small and that's what makes it difficult to keep up with, for me at least.