Idea for instructors re: students below poverty line

[Hoi Polloi]

With all of the handouts, social programs, private charity, 'food stamps', etc.......I be willing to bet that quite a few of those in 'poverty' are actually better off that you think!

I know far more about being poor, truly poor and truly hungry and truly vulnerable and dependent on the mercy of others, than you might think.

[i8godzilla]

With all of the handouts, social programs, private charity, 'food stamps', etc.......I be willing to bet that quite a few of those in 'poverty' are actually better off that you think!

I know far more about being poor, truly poor and truly hungry and truly vulnerable and dependent on the mercy of others, than you might think.

Do not think my comment was made without some FIRST HAND knowledge...................

[BobCat]

Yes, you are distinctly right, two conversations.

1) Yes, it would be politically good to broaden our base and get more of the previously-disenfranchised on board.
2) Even the State gives a price break on the license for those who need it.
3) Breaking the dam, starting a trickle that might turn into a flood, is a worthy goal.

OTOH:

1) No good deed goes unpunished.
2) If someone wants it enough, they'll find a way to pay for it.
3) Lower the price and people do not see the value.

Just this morning I was talking to someone about how the weekend went, and he told me he'd been to the tin-can place. The tin-can place is a store that sells "scratch-and-dent" cans of food, either dented or near expiration. He got all kinds of canned food, 4 for a dollar. We talked about how he seldom sees people who really need to shop there; those whose income is much lower than his. He complained about seeing them at Kroger, buying chips and ice cream with a Lone Star card.

I suggested the possibility that nobody taught them how to cook and eat properly, instead of pre-prepared poison. Nobody taught them arithmetic, so they could figure out that buying a bunch of individual-serving cups of ice cream is much more expensive than the same amount in a large container. He just looked at me. Yes, I want to make excuses - maybe because I'm too soft-headed to face the truth. The truth is that sometimes, if you give someone a hand, they'll take your arm. OTOH sometimes a steadying hand, for the moment, is all they need to get back on their feet.

I'm not disagreeing that your suggestion could lead to good results, just agreeing with Hangfour about the particular point he made, that I quoted.

Interesting conversation. I'm sorry, I preoccupied and can't think straight, someone just found 4 little kittens over by the A/C unit, I gave them all the kibble I had left, and need to trap/test/place them, and am out of people with whom to place them.

Regards,
Andrew

[terryg]

To clarify, I am not talking about giving away for free. Half the state fees ($140/2=70) plus half the instruction fees ($100ish/2=50) plus a handgun ($100-200?), plus 10-15 hours instruction in addition to driving time and gas and bullets, plus paperwork including additional documentation of proof of indigency, and background checks... it wouldn't exactly be a free handout.

Hoi,

Who would be comping the state fee?

[Hoi Polloi]

He complained about seeing them at Kroger, buying chips and ice cream with a Lone Star card.

Do you realize that you can't purchase chips and ice cream with a lone star card? It covers a very small selection of very specific foods and in order to get them, applicants must be below 185% of the poverty level, must be at nutritional risk, must attend classes every 1-3 months on nutrition and health, children must have documentation of regular doctor visits and immunizations and must have their weight, height, and iron levels tested every 1-3 months, among other things. Many people who are eligible choose not to apply for them because of how much work must go into it for how little is actually covered. It will keep people from having anemia, rickets, or starvation, but not much more.

[Hoi Polloi]

To clarify, I am not talking about giving away for free. Half the state fees ($140/2=70) plus half the instruction fees ($100ish/2=50) plus a handgun ($100-200?), plus 10-15 hours instruction in addition to driving time and gas and bullets, plus paperwork including additional documentation of proof of indigency, and background checks... it wouldn't exactly be a free handout.

Hoi,

Who would be comping the state fee?

The state already does. It offers 50% off the administrative fees for those who can show proof that they are below the federal poverty level or who are senior citizens.

[i8godzilla]

He complained about seeing them at Kroger, buying chips and ice cream with a Lone Star card.

Do you realize that you can't purchase chips and ice cream with a lone star card? It covers a very small selection of very specific foods and in order to get them, applicants must be below 185% of the poverty level, must be at nutritional risk, must attend classes every 1-3 months on nutrition and health, children must have documentation of regular doctor visits and immunizations and must have their weight, height, and iron levels tested every 1-3 months, among other things. Many people who are eligible choose not to apply for them because of how much work must go into it for how little is actually covered. It will keep people from having anemia, rickets, or starvation, but not much more.

I think you are talking about WIC (was referred to as: Women, Infants, and Children). You CAN buy almost any food item with SNAP benefits using the Lone Star card, including, chips, soda, and ice cream.

http://www.hhsc.state.tx.us/providers/L ... th_my_Card" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hoi Polloi]

I think you are talking about WIC (was referred to as: Women, Infants, and Children). You CAN buy almost any food item with SNAP benefits using the Lone Star card, including, chips, soda, and ice cream.

http://www.hhsc.state.tx.us/providers/L ... th_my_Card" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who qualifies? "A family with resources worth $100 or less, and monthly income less than $150" can qualify for emergency SNAP. "For most adults between the ages of 18 and 50 who do not have a child in the home, SNAP benefits are limited to 3 months in a 3-year period. The benefit period can be longer if the adult works at least 20 hours a week or is in a job or training program."

Not a whole lot of chips and not a whole lot of people who can even get that.

Generally, if household countable income and resources are less than the food stamp program income and resource limits, then the household is eligible for food stamp benefits. The maximum food stamp allotment amounts are contained in APPENDIX 2.
Exceptions to the general eligibility rule are as follows:
(1) Childless adults, unemployed, able-bodied, between the ages of 18 and 50, who, within the past 36-month period, received three months of food stamp benefits during which time they were unemployed, except in certain exempt geographical areas.
(2) Persons disqualified from the program for an intentional rule violation. (3) Recipients whose benefits were terminated when they quit a job without good reason or did
not comply with food stamp work requirements. (4) Persons who are enrolled at least half-time in a college unless they work 20 hours per week,
or receive federal work-study money, or are under age 18, or are over age 50, or are physically or mentally unfit, or are receiving cash assistance (TANF), or are taking care of a small child.
(5) Persons who live in a hospital, jail, or in certain institutions that serve meals. (6) Persons on strike, except in the cases of lockouts, permanent replacement, or pre-strike food
stamp eligibility. (7) Persons with felony drug convictions on or after August 22, 1996 in some states. (8) Undocumented immigrants and certain legal immigrants.

There are two main countable income tests for food stamp eligibility: the gross monthly income test, which is 130% of the Federal Poverty Income Level (FPIL), and the net monthly income test, which is 100% FPIL. Gross monthly income minus expenses allowed by the food stamp program is equal to net monthly income. Households with no elderly or disabled members must meet both the gross monthly income test and the net monthly income test to qualify for food stamp benefit

[CompVest]

My response sounds like a good idea, but how would an instructor decide or know if the person is "deserving" of the cost break? Instructors have no way to do the background check necessary to know if the person is financially in need.

The other issue I have is if the person can't afford the class they must likely can't afford a gun or the ammo needed to shoot it.

[Hoi Polloi]

My response sounds like a good idea, but how would an instructor decide or know if the person is "deserving" of the cost break? Instructors have no way to do the background check necessary to know if the person is financially in need.

Good point. How does a person currently qualify for the indigency rate? I didn't read anything about a background check--just sending in documentation with the application. Have you handled one before? Do you know the process?

[BobCat]

Ok, I'll ask him whether it was really a Lone Star card or what - or if he was just repeating something someone else told him, or making it up.

I do not want to hijack this thread and go off on a tangent about welfare cheats / people who abuse the system.

I agree that your initial suggestion about a break on the class, in keeping with the State's break on the license fee, has merit.

But I also assert that trying to do someone a favor, give them a break, help them out - all these things are fraught with danger and can be double-edged swords. Like affirmative action, the thought might be admirable but the effect can backfire. A minority person with a PhD may be held in lower regard than someone who did not qualify for affirmative action, even though that minority person truly earned the degree and knows more than his colleagues; I've seen it often.

The goal of diversifying the CHL base is admirable, but I think we need to look at another issue. Before CHL, some people carried anyway. They might have thought that they would not be caught for UCW unless they needed it to fend off an attack, in which case (a "good shoot") the Law might cut them some slack (or - better convicted than dead).

Some people still carry anyway, w/o CHL, and are not too bothered. I'm sure some of them feel that the Second Amendment says they don't really need permission to have a defensive weapon (and I happen to agree, but don't want to be a test case on an already-settled issue, I'd loose), and don't want to jump through government hoops to do what they already have a right to do. The actual chance of having to draw and fire one's carry weapon is quite small, making the risk of being found carrying w/o a license pretty small - they just don't see the need.

Wanting to be "within the rules" is a mindset that those with CHLs share - but not everyone agrees. Besides the cost, this may be another reason some people don't "bother" with the license.

Anyway, not being argumentative - just saying there are all kinds of people and all kids of reasons to have, or not have, a CHL.

Regards,
Andrew

[wally775]

A few observations. Ok, really just opinions.

People can always have a gun given to them by a family member. = No cost.

You are required to qualify with X caliber minimum.
You can carry, not that I recommend it, any caliber. = Low cost ammo

Texas is a shall issue State. You want a license, you qualify, you get.
I think this is a good concept.

Hoi you never know instructors may already be adjusting rates
at their discretion already. They just don’t advertise.

JMO

[Purplehood]

A few observations. Ok, really just opinions.

People can always have a gun given to them by a family member. = No cost.

You are required to qualify with X caliber minimum.
You can carry, not that I recommend it, any caliber. = Low cost ammo

Texas is a shall issue State. You want a license, you qualify, you get.
I think this is a good concept.

Hoi you never know instructors may already be adjusting rates
at their discretion already. They just don’t advertise.

JMO

IMHO, the folks that might benefit from this program tend to come from extended families that are just as impoverished as they are. Consequently I would be reluctant to assume that a relative can loan them a bonafide, legally-owned weapon. I know that that is presumptuous and stereotypical, but it is my guess that it happens that way more often than not.

[Crossfire]

My response sounds like a good idea, but how would an instructor decide or know if the person is "deserving" of the cost break? Instructors have no way to do the background check necessary to know if the person is financially in need.

Good point. How does a person currently qualify for the indigency rate? I didn't read anything about a background check--just sending in documentation with the application. Have you handled one before? Do you know the process?

Yes, they have to send in a copy of their previous year's income tax return.

[Ameer]

- Should there be a mandatory requirement (for those that have no LEO or Military experience for example) to go through a free seminar on handgun shooting, safety and related subjects prior to the CHL class?

NO!

I think there should be a way to test out of the full 10-15 hour class, based on actual skills and knowledge, but I don't think a piece of paper from somewhere else should get people out of the Texas requirements.

It's like some of my classes at UH. There are students who need remedial help. The answer is to fail them if they can't do the work to pass this class. Then they can go take a remedial class if they need it. Forcing me to waste my time taking remedial classes because other students struggle is herd mentality and is unfair when I have an A average.