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boba wrote:

Purplehood wrote:But they are appropriate to the individual headstones, presumably in compliance with the religious preference stated by each Service member when they enlisted/commissioned. I don't see that as any violation of 1st Amendment rights.

However, I also think the service member should be able to choose non-religious symbols if they're not religious. It is, after all, their headstone.

I think they can. I know they can get dog-tags that state No Preference.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
After reading my post again, it could appear that my "politically incorrect" statement was directed at you and/or your argument. I was not and if you took it that way I apologize. I was referring to the anti-Christian campaign conducted extensively by the media, the ACLU, atheists groups, non-Christian/non-Jewish religions, and some politicians.

I would make no distinction between public and private property in terms of displaying religious symbols because I do not believe the original intent of the Establishment Clause requires public venues to be devoid of any reference to God or Jesus. I acknowledge that U.S. Supreme Court cases hold otherwise which is why I said the First Amendment and the Commerce Clause should be amended.

Chas.

It should not be specifically anti-Christian or anti-Jewish, it should just be anti religious symbolism. I compare it to the scene in Iraq when we went into Baghdad and, in the heat of the moment, the soldier placed the American flag atop the statue of Saddam. I'm sure it was not his intent, but it symbolizes a conquering of a nation, which was not the objective. Similarly, when a government entity places a Christian flag, or other symbol, on their property, and excludes other religious groups, it symbolizes that government endorsing Christianity over other religions, which I do not feel should happen. This great nation is NOT a Christian nation, and that point was explicitly stated by the Founding Fathers. It IS a nation where everyone is free to worship as they choose, and the government is kept from endorsing one religious preference over another, just as it was designed.

I'm not saying anyone should sue anyone over it, as I feel, like many other lawsuits, that it is a frivolous one. I do feel that the government should not endorse Judeo-Christian beliefs over other religious beliefs, and allowing it to do so is setting a terrible precedent.

bigred90gt wrote:This great nation is NOT a Christian nation, and that point was explicitly stated by the Founding Fathers.

I do feel that the government should not endorse Judeo-Christian beliefs over other religious beliefs, and allowing it to do so is setting a terrible precedent.

I love to read historical quotes so will you please share yours with me that reflect the above beliefs?

I recall them saying that our government is not grounded in a particular faith tradition, but on the freedom of liberty to worship (speak, write, pursue happiness, etc) as we please. They also frequently said that we as individuals received those freedoms from God and that is why we must ensure them for others.

I believe the Judeo-Christian roots of American history, philosophy, culture, etc are undeniable along with the great influence specifically of both freemason and strict anabaptist beliefs. It is those roots that led to our establishment of a Judeo-Christian nation comprised by a union of states and territories into a federation with a non-sectarian republican form of government following the Madisonian model, is it not?

Hoi Polloi wrote:

bigred90gt wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:This great nation is NOT a Christian nation, and that point was explicitly stated by the Founding Fathers.

I do feel that the government should not endorse Judeo-Christian beliefs over other religious beliefs, and allowing it to do so is setting a terrible precedent.

I love to read historical quotes so will you please share yours with me that reflect the above beliefs?

I recall them saying that our government is not grounded in a particular faith tradition, but on the freedom of liberty to worship (speak, write, pursue happiness, etc) as we please. They also frequently said that we as individuals received those freedoms from God and that is why we must ensure them for others.

I believe the Judeo-Christian roots of American history, philosophy, culture, etc are undeniable along with the great influence specifically of both freemason and strict anabaptist beliefs. It is those roots that led to our establishment of a Judeo-Christian nation comprised by a union of states and territories into a federation with a non-sectarian republican form of government following the Madisonian model, is it not?

Hoi--I think you edited the quotes wrong and put words in Charles' mouth..........

i8godzilla wrote:Hoi--I think you edited the quotes wrong and put words in Charles' mouth..........

Whoops! Thank you! I'll go fix it now.

Hoi Polloi wrote:I love to read historical quotes so will you please share yours with me...

How about...

"To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion: if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper". Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

Watching to see how long this goes on without violating the religion rule.

Morality rests on religion

can you provide any factual data that would even remotly support this claim?
Why should the concept of christianity or any other religon for that matter be thrust apon people that have no belife in its idea's and teachings? Its one thing to do as you wish on private land, But public grounds and goverment funded locations is no place for it. IMO anyway.
So far as grave markers go, well that should be labled as private plot of land to do with as you and your survivors see best fit.
I have nothing what so every aginst a christian way of life but I firmly belive it has no place in goverment or in our schools.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:As the Commerce Clause has been perverted to justify virtually any legislation Congress wants to pass, the First Amendment has been perverted to prohibit displays of the Christian faith on government property. Both the First Amendment and the Commerce Clause should be amended.

Nowhere in the Constitution will you find the phrase "separation of church and state." That abomination came from the Supreme Court. The only thing the First Amendment did in relation to religion was prevent the Untied States Government (later to include state government via the 14th Amendment) from establishing a federal (or state) church and require membership and/or attendance. The impetus for the Establishment Clause was the Church of England and the founding fathers' desire not to have a Church of the Untied States.

The fact that there are many religions other than the Judaism and Christianity is irrelevant. If the First Amendment were amended to clearly restate the original intent, then followers of other religions can petition their local government officials to include symbols of their faith on government property. If those requests are approved, fine, they are approved. If they are rejected, then fine, they are rejected. Posting of religious symbols on public property should not be a right, nor should it be prohibited. Followers of a particular religion do not have a right to a federal or state holiday in the name of one of their leaders, nor should they have equal time or presence on government property.

cheezit wrote:

Morality rests on religion

can you provide any factual data that would even remotly support this claim?
Why should the concept of christianity or any other religon for that matter be thrust apon people that have no belife in its idea's and teachings? Its one thing to do as you wish on private land, But public grounds and goverment funded locations is no place for it. IMO anyway.
So far as grave markers go, well that should be labled as private plot of land to do with as you and your survivors see best fit.
I have nothing what so every aginst a christian way of life but I firmly belive it has no place in goverment or in our schools.

The discussion was what ideals our country was founded upon, not what philosophical system withstands the tests of science. The quote addressed the topic at hand by showing what one founding father had to say about the role of religion in our nation.

A Christian flag is not thrusting a religion on a person. It is the free expression of someone's faith. What the founding fathers opposed was requiring you to belong to a particular religion or pay tithes to a particular church. That's quite different from feeling victimized and forced to accept a faith because of someone else's free exercise thereof.

A Christian flag is not thrusting a religion on a person. It is the free expression of someone's faith

See this is my point, Sence when did the goverment become a "someone". It has not nor will it ever be.
Its "We the People" and not all we's are christian.

Charles L. Cotton wrote
followers of other religions can petition their local government officials to include symbols of their faith on government property. If those requests are approved, fine, they are approved. If they are rejected, then fine, they are rejected.

this sounds great in practice, Im all for it as soon as the goverment can manage this with complete unbiased and equal representation for all. That mean christians, jew, pastafarians, budist, and follwers of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, et. all

Hoi Polloi wrote: I believe the Judeo-Christian roots of American history, philosophy, culture, etc are undeniable along with the great influence specifically of both freemason and strict anabaptist beliefs. It is those roots that led to our establishment of a Judeo-Christian nation comprised by a union of states and territories into a federation with a non-sectarian republican form of government following the Madisonian model, is it not?

The Culture & Law structure of the majority of the Western world was based on Judeo-Christian Morals and Beliefs. Whether you are follow those beliefs today or not is irrelevant. Modern Western societies' laws were based on the morals and delineations of right and wrong as presented in the Bible. Most of early American law was pretty much Copied from English law at the time, with a few modifications to suit their desires to be free from oppression.

The laws that define moral behavior today - Murder, Theft, Violence, Lying, etc, are today still based on the beliefs imparted in the Bible.

Whether someone is Christian today or not, has no bearing. The laws are the laws, and they are derived from Christian Roots. Even Atheists will admit this.

I believe that this is one of the main reasons why we are having the huge Western Civilization vs. Muslim issues we are having today. They live by a completely different set of Morals, and their cultures were forged under a completely different set of laws, defined by that completely different set of Morals.

Since their morals conflict directly with our laws, the only way they can see to rectify the situation is not to change their morals, but rather, to change the laws, and our minds, to match their Morals.

When one group has one set of morals, and is raised to believe that their Morals are correct, and another group has a completely different set of Morals, and also believe that their morals are correct, and they conflict, you have an impasse, that cannot be resolved without one set 'winning' (in some way, concession, acceptance, force...) over the other.

Hoi Polloi wrote:

bigred90gt wrote:This great nation is NOT a Christian nation, and that point was explicitly stated by the Founding Fathers.

I do feel that the government should not endorse Judeo-Christian beliefs over other religious beliefs, and allowing it to do so is setting a terrible precedent.

I love to read historical quotes so will you please share yours with me that reflect the above beliefs?

I recall them saying that our government is not grounded in a particular faith tradition, but on the freedom of liberty to worship (speak, write, pursue happiness, etc) as we please. They also frequently said that we as individuals received those freedoms from God and that is why we must ensure them for others.

I believe the Judeo-Christian roots of American history, philosophy, culture, etc are undeniable along with the great influence specifically of both freemason and strict anabaptist beliefs. It is those roots that led to our establishment of a Judeo-Christian nation comprised by a union of states and territories into a federation with a non-sectarian republican form of government following the Madisonian model, is it not?

I'm not necessarily talking about quotes, but I will go ahead and throw some in while I'm at it. I'm speaking about the documentation put out by the founding fathers, most notable the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights make no mention of "God" to my knowledge. The 1st amendment specifically states that "Congress shall make no law with respect to an establishment of religion". Not sure how much more needs to be said to make the point, but I'll keep going. in the Declaration of Independence, it states "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Take note of the bolded words. It states "their Creator", not "our Creator", leaving it open to "their Creator" being individually defined as 'they" (the people) please, not the creator in the biblical sense. In the Treaty with Tripoli, it specifically states "Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;".

Some quotes:

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." - Thomas Paine (Common Sense, 1776.)