TexasCHLforum.com

I some what agree. CHL are not cops and they are not suppose to be. CHL go about their lives prepared for trouble, under no circumstance should they go looking for trouble. Citizen patrol go actively looking for trouble and report events the police who are trained to handle the situation. Is it okay for an armed citizen to stop crime with a gun if no lives are being threatened?

I'll try to phrase this more eloquently later

If you sign the agreement don't carry. I live by the following: "all human suffering is caused by broken agreements". I make few of them but when I do I keep them meticulously. I won't bother to quote the Bible or the Quran about taking oaths. Hope this helps.

psijac wrote:Is it okay for an armed citizen to stop crime with a gun if no lives are being threatened?

It depends.

However, the things it depends on have nothing to do with the armed citizen's skin color, the armed citizen's employer, whether the armed citizen is wearing a uniform, etc.

I'm talking about ethically right or wrong. Legal is different and has nothing to do with morality, as shown by the black codes, blue laws, GFSZA, etc.

ScottDLS wrote:

terryg wrote:
I would be concerned it could be twisted to show that he 'wanted to play cop' ...

Of course he wanted to play cop...otherwise he wouldn't sign up for Citizens' Patrol

But that's not a criminal offense.

No, its not. I didn't mean to imply that it is.

terryg wrote: Don't sign anything. You may have been told 'wink wink' that there will be no checking, etc. But if you did have to use your weapon during a CP, I don't see any reason a malicious prosecutor couldn't use that as evidence against you.

What I mean, is if he were to be involved in a SD shooting and the prosecutor wanted to bring charges against him, his signature on that document could, and probably would, be used against him. I don't think it would generate any charges by itself. But it would be used by the prosecutor to taint the jury by painting an image of a 'cop wannabe' who was just 'out looking for trouble'.

I didn't mean that signing it and the carrying would be a crime - only that signing it could become a liability for him.

Thanks to some of you who stayed on topic and have helped reinforce my concerns about having signed an agreement to not carry. I think it is best that I not join the Patrol. As for the rest of you who equate having a chl and trying to also help gather information in my community for an understaffed and unappreciated police force with being some sort of vigilante out to shoot thugs I catch in my area -- your deduction skills are sadly impaired. I did not get a license to shoot the bad guys in my neighborhood. I got a license to protect myself and my family if someone threatens us. I did get some good advice here, so I am exiting this thread.

I have hiked (walk and jog) a 3 1/2 mile loop in my neighborhood every day I am in town for 9 years now. With weapon. I have yet seen the need to phone in suspicious activity, although the dispatcher's number is coded on my cell. If I do call in a suspicion, I believe I have 2 alternatives that a CP person does not have. The scenario is this:

I see the need to make the call. I am one house from the scene. Two BGs come down that driveway carrying a $2,000 TV. They see me phoning, gingerly set the TV down, draw their weapons and start firing at me. If I were a CP, I see 3 options for me:
1) Turn and run in a sepentine course and hope they are poor shooters.
2) Throw my cell phone at them, hitting the first BG in the head and knocking him out. The phone then hits the other one and knocks him out, too.
3) Stand my ground and start trying to talk them into stopping their life of crime.

In my situation, I see those options and 2 more:

4) Turn and run in a sepentine course while firing my weapon to discourage them from chasing me.
5) Drop on my belly to reduce the size of their target and trade shots with them.

While I see a distinct advantage to my options, I hope the situation doesn't arise for the next 9 years.

I think all of you have focused on the patrolling aspect and missed the critical question. If you are told to not carry while on patrol as a member of the HPD and you do, what can happen to you?

The answer is that while you are on patrol for the HPD Citizen's posse (the real term), you are an employee of the police department. The code of conduct is your employee handbook. This is the same question as if your paid employer has a no guns clause in you employee handbook and you are caught carrying. You can be fired but not prosecuted. The only difference is if the notice was in the proper language for 30.06. If your employer owns the property, you could then be prosecuted but if it was your property (your car for deliveries for example) you cannot be breaking the law.

So, I will not comment on whether or not you should break your word (that is your personal moral choice) but you cannot be prosecuted for choosing to carry, just kicked out of the group.

Lots of interesting comments. First, to address the original question. If you sign something that prohibits a certain conduct then you are bound by it. IF you have a shooting and are representing HPD as COP, then HPD may not arrest you, but the liability if any, is squarely on your shoulders. Remember, just cause you are not liable does not mean you cannot be sued. The City will not support you.
Under the deadly force laws it states in effect if you shoot and use deadly force properly you will not be prosecuted for illegal possession of a firearm.

Now for the COP. I support the theory behind COP, I was an LEO for 15 years, the more eyes an ears you have out there the better we all are, however citizens who are not trained, meaning CHL holders as well, should be eyes and ears only. Stay in the car, observe take notes, video whatever, but do not react unless your own life is in danger, always protect yourself.

I know many on here will not agree with that, but the vast majority on here do not have police training, and there is more to consider than what meets the eye.

My next door was a reserve Peace Officer in Collin County, he had badge and carried with no CHL. He used to be on duty couple weekends a month or so. If you would like to play a cop, better be a cop.

In my city The Officer in charge of Neighborhood watch told me there is nothing he could do EXCEPT remove a person of their offical crimewatch duties. They could take away the magnetic crime watch sticker you stick on your car and not allow you to be part of the patrol if they wanted to.

I asked him what about if you ride along with the police (in their car) as a volunteer. He said same thing...that the most they could do was not allow you to ride along again.

Beiruty wrote:My next door was a reserve Peace Officer in Collin County, he had badge and carried with no CHL. He used to be on duty couple weekends a month or so. If you would like to play a cop, better be a cop.

I think you missed the point of the OP. He doesn't want to play cop. He wants to support his community and be a part of the patrol program - but doesn't want to have to disarm while doing it. It doesn't mean he would suddenly change his reaction and run toward the sound of gunfire or try to play hero. But, like many here, for his own protection would rather not disarm for this - or any - activity.

My concern wasn't that he would try to play cop and run to the 'action'. But rather if, while on patrol, he became the target of a BG and was forced to fire his weapon for a SD reason, the prosecutor could use his signed signature to paint an unfavorable picture of him to the jury.

srothstein wrote:I think all of you have focused on the patrolling aspect and missed the critical question. If you are told to not carry while on patrol as a member of the HPD and you do, what can happen to you?

The answer is that while you are on patrol for the HPD Citizen's posse (the real term), you are an employee of the police department. The code of conduct is your employee handbook. This is the same question as if your paid employer has a no guns clause in you employee handbook and you are caught carrying. You can be fired but not prosecuted. The only difference is if the notice was in the proper language for 30.06. If your employer owns the property, you could then be prosecuted but if it was your property (your car for deliveries for example) you cannot be breaking the law.

So, I will not comment on whether or not you should break your word (that is your personal moral choice) but you cannot be prosecuted for choosing to carry, just kicked out of the group.

Good point. I like to keep my word and couldn't do it in such a situation.

Another thing to think of if you want to do this and have a CHL is that yes you may be in a city vehicle patroling, but you also may be insde of a police station in a secure area. Most cities require that you go through their citizen police acadmey and there are many areas that you would be in violation of the law to carry.

Best choice, if you want to do the C.O.P. thing, disarm and follow thier rules. If a person would be worried about their safety, then don't join the club and then CCW in your own car.

terryg wrote:I think you missed the point of the OP. He doesn't want to play cop.

Right. He just wants to drive around and look for suspicious activity.

Bottom line, if you want to carry don't join HPD's C.O.P. If you want join an organization that is not associated with an agency, that permits you to carry, PM me.