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Re: Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:02 pm
by Oldgringo
KD5NRH wrote:The Annoyed Man wrote:I don't want any trouble. I just want to get to where I'm going, so I avoid replying and interacting with you and I just keep walking. You pull a gun on me. I don't want to escalate the situation
Seems a bit late for not escalating at that point. IMO, when the "defender" draws, it's a bit late to hope for a nonviolent end to the situation; your only warning that it's going to escalate further (to you getting shot) will be if you're observant enough to watch his finger taking up slack on the trigger.
first and ask questions later
. Twelve, tried and true, of your peers may not have a problem with that
.
Re: Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:01 pm
by RPB
radioflyer wrote:While at an IDPA meet, a fellow shooter (I don't remember his name so we'll call him John) described an instance that i couldn't come up with a solution to:
A suspicious individual with his hands in his overcoat approached John and his wife on the street. John assumed a defensive posture and ordered the man to stop. The individual did not stop until John reached for his weapon. At this point John was aware that the individual could have been concealing a weapon-in-hand under his coat. A routine command of "show me your hands" could have given him an excuse to draw a weapon turning the situation into a gunfight.
At this point, John told the individual to turn around slowly and put his hands to his sides. The individual refused resulting in a stalemate. At this point, the individual is only a possible threat showing no significant aggressive behavior (only a refusal to comply). John has minimal justification in drawing his weapon as it would escalate a situation to either a firefight or put him in a legal quandary of bring portrayed as the gunman if the individual is unarmed.
John told me he lucked out when the individual eventually walked off, and he and is wife waited until he was out of sight to get to their vehicle. Still not knowing weather the individual was an armed attacker, what would you do in this scenario?
We would have been on the other side of the street way before he got close enough to become a threat.
But seriously, if we had been inattentive of our surroundings enough for that to occur, I'd need more details about the surroundings, as to whether we'd be around a corner on another street and circle back later or whatever.
Re: Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:17 pm
by The Annoyed Man
KD5NRH wrote:The Annoyed Man wrote:I don't want any trouble. I just want to get to where I'm going, so I avoid replying and interacting with you and I just keep walking. You pull a gun on me. I don't want to escalate the situation
Seems a bit late for not escalating at that point. IMO, when the "defender" draws, it's a bit late to hope for a nonviolent end to the situation; your only warning that it's going to escalate further (to you getting shot) will be if you're observant enough to watch his finger taking up slack on the trigger.
I was postulating a non-violent and innocent silent stranger. If I, the silent stranger, draw my gun in response to someone who already has drop on me, which might certainly be a legitimate response, it will also most certainly degenerate to a blood bath, with me being on the receiving end of it - since the other fellow already has his gun out and can certainly shoot me before I can draw mine. That sounds to me like an escalation - albeit not the kind of escalation we usually refer to.
Obviously, the best tactic would be to avoid walking down the street toward a couple that had a suspicious vibe about them in the first place. From 'John's' perspective, what did he do to put distance between himself and a suspicious stranger? We covered some of this stuff in the Shooting from Retention clinic at the forum day last month.
Re: Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.
Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:22 am
by gigag04
If something trips your spidey senses, distance and cover are your friend. Walk around the parked car, putting it between you and the poor guy in the "trench coat" (aka overcoat)...Just an example.
I think if someone started giving me verbal commands I'd laugh in their face.
Re: Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.
Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:23 am
by Beiruty
gigag04 wrote:If something trips your spidey senses, distance and cover are your friend. Walk around the parked car, putting it between you and the poor guy in the "trench coat" (aka overcoat)...Just an example.
I think if someone started giving me verbal commands I'd laugh in their face.
Surely enough, LEO will shout day in day out. "Show me your hands, Show me your hands" and this is a no laughing matter.
Re: Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.
Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:19 am
by RPB
gigag04 wrote:If something trips your spidey senses, distance and cover are your friend. Walk around the parked car, putting it between you and the poor guy in the "trench coat" (aka overcoat)...Just an example.
I think if someone started giving me verbal commands I'd laugh in their face.
The last time someone ordered me to turn around, they had a .38 at my neck, and his accomplice had a gun on my cashier.
They got almost $200.00
in change, big score for those dummies. I wasn't armed back then, back in the early 1970s.
I probably wouldn't take well to being ordered around by anyone without a badge. If told to turn my back to a suspicious person, I'd suspect he was up to no good. Where's my Bat Masterson cane?
Re: Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.
Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:23 pm
by OCD
Hoi Polloi wrote:Imagine being the other guy! You are walking along when someone in a defensive posture tells you to turn around and put his hands to your sides.
Escape and call 911 to report being threatened with a deadly weapon.
Re: Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:11 am
by Jumping Frog
Everyone is talking about how they wouldn't like to be ordered around.
But I am also aware of cases, especially in a Walmart or grocery store parking lot, where a LAC CHL in condition yellow (as they should be) saw people targeting them and approaching them where it really did look like a robbery setup.
A firm voice telling the to "STOP, don't come any closer, leave me alone" with the flashlight in their face has caused BG's to run off on more than one occasion. Sometimes, turning your body so that your holstered handgun is away from the BG and placing your hand on your grip triggers BG flight behavior.
I always worry about Tueller distance. Someone can be apparently unarmed right up until those last few feet when they can rush you and slice you open.
If I have told someone to stop, not come any closer, and they continue to close the distance to me, I am assuming they have bad intentions.
Re: Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:02 am
by Dragonfighter
On the face of it, the reaction seems excessive. Unfortunately we don't know all of the factors here. We don't know what the circumstances were, what his expression was, his posture, eye contact, etc., etc.
If we were in John's shoes, are we sure we would not have reacted as he did?
And therein lies the problem. Post incident critiques with precious little information.
Re: Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:57 am
by PUCKER
Just throwing this out there, as I was in a colder/cooler climate last week (Indy, IN, downtown). When I carry in that type of weather I usually have my revolver in my jacket pocket, the same pocket that my hands go in to keep them warm, ie - the lowest pockets of the jacket, around belt-level...in other words, looks normal, but "ready to go" even from the pocket, you can patch a hole in the jacket (or get another one), ie - I don't need to take my hand(s) out to fire in a close situation. So, what I'm saying is, had someone drawn a gun on me while walking on the street it most likely wouldn't have been pretty...not bravado, just fact...I do go well out of my way, even to the point of crossing the street to keep my distance from individuals, especially late at night.
