TexasCHLforum.com

WildBill wrote:

MoJo wrote:

WildBill wrote: Would you want the DPS to investigate you based on a rumor?

IANAL or CHL Instructor.

If it quashed the rumor no problem - - - that's why DPS investigates rather than simply pulling the instructor's certificate - - - to be sure its true not rumor.

If you think that way, that's your prerogative, but I would not want to be investigated by any agency based on unsustantiated rumors that came from sources who have no direct knowledge of the event or any evidence of wrong doing.

I wouldn't either, but child protective services does it every day of the week, and with little or no subtlety or discretion. I have first hand experience with it.

My guess is that if DPS wanted to investigate, they would do it undercover, and they wouldn't confront the instructor in question until after the fact of their investigation. That would be the smart, subtle, and discrete way of handling it.

The Annoyed Man wrote:I wouldn't either, but child protective services does it every day of the week, and with little or no subtlety or discretion. I have first hand experience with it.

That doesn't make it any more acceptable.

WildBill wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:I wouldn't either, but child protective services does it every day of the week, and with little or no subtlety or discretion. I have first hand experience with it.

That doesn't make it any more acceptable.

I'm not arguing that it does. Believe me. My point was that officialdom has no problem with acting like that. But raising that as an objection rather than a cautionary note doesn't work for me because it is entirely possible to investigate the subject without acting like the Gestapo. In fact, it is arguable that an investigation would yield a more truthful answer if the subject did not know he was being observed. Hence my saying "under cover." If the reported accusations are baseless, then it need go no further and it can be round-filed.

WildBill wrote:

MoJo wrote:

WildBill wrote: Would you want the DPS to investigate you based on a rumor?

IANAL or CHL Instructor.

If it quashed the rumor no problem - - - that's why DPS investigates rather than simply pulling the instructor's certificate - - - to be sure its true not rumor.

If you think that way, that's your prerogative, but I would not want to be investigated by any agency based on unsustantiated rumors that came from sources who have no direct knowledge of the event or any evidence of wrong doing.

If it is unsubstantiated, odds are very good that the instructor would never know that their class had been 'audited'.

WildBill wrote:I think that this is a bad idea. You might look as though you are trying to eliminate your competition.

If a student of the other instructor has evidence of any wrong doing, then he or she should be the person that files a complaint with DPS. Since your neighbors asked you if you would cut the class short, they seem to be willing to cut corners.

How would you feel if another instructor made a complaint about your CHL class when they had no first hand knowledge or objective evidence that you weren't following DPS guidelines? Would you want the DPS to investigate you based on a rumor?

IANAL or CHL Instructor.

Maybe I wasn't clear in the earlier post. The neighbor asked if I would do a short class at the request of the group, my neighbor wasn't asking me, he already went through my class.

The neighbor knew I wouldn't do a short class, he was just the go between for the group and me since they would not call me directly after he gave them our cards.

I have good relationships with other instructors in town. As far as I know they do what they are supposed to and do a good job of teaching without cutting classes to half the required time.

My understanding is that if the DPS needs to investigate an instructor they do it without the instructors knowledge. They have one of their own attend a class with the instructor and determine if he is following the rules.

If they find they are not, they pull the certificate, if they find they are then all is well.

"It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bushel", My Momma told me that a long time ago.

texasjeep44 wrote:My understanding is that if the DPS needs to investigate an instructor they do it without the instructors knowledge. They have one of their own attend a class with the instructor and determine if he is following the rules.

If they find they are not, they pull the certificate, if they find they are then all is well.

That is how they explained it to us in our instructor class. An agent will just register like any other student, including paying the instructor's fee. If the instruction is appropriate, the instructor doesn't even know he was audited (like it should be) and gets a bonus student out of the deal. No harm done.

It sounds similar to TABC investigating a convenience store to see if they sell beer to kids. If the business follows the law, they don't have much to worry about, and they may not even know they were investigated.

MasterOfNone wrote:

texasjeep44 wrote:My understanding is that if the DPS needs to investigate an instructor they do it without the instructors knowledge. They have one of their own attend a class with the instructor and determine if he is following the rules.

If they find they are not, they pull the certificate, if they find they are then all is well.

That is how they explained it to us in our instructor class. An agent will just register like any other student, including paying the instructor's fee. If the instruction is appropriate, the instructor doesn't even know he was audited (like it should be) and gets a bonus student out of the deal. No harm done.

Hmmm....unfortunately that's not the way they all handle investigations. There is an instructor in our area that was reported for "short" classes. Someone from DPS just had a talk with him, now everytime he teaches a class he makes a big production of telling everyone at the range that it is a renewal class. Aparently it is not as easy to get rid of bad apples as we would think.

Everyone thinks that this is the only place where this makes a difference, however I have noticed the same "shortcuts" being done with scuba certifications. It isn't carrying a weapon but those guys go on to become divemasters and instructors themselves and hold peoples safety in their hands everyday. The point is anytime you have guys out there doing anything for money there will always be guys taking shortcuts to try and make more money. All that can be done is to report these guys to the proper authorities and hope the problem can be resolved.

I would attend the class and then drop the dime on him, if he's in violation. During my Instructor Certification, the State admitted theat they are short on auditors and they rely heavily on students to report an instructor's violations. You're not a student if you didn't take the class and if you didnt witness it first hand, it's just hear say. My two cents.

Doctors, Laywyers, Engineers, Accountants, Indian Chiefs, Bakers and Candlestick Makers all have some sort of Code of Ethics and standards.

Shouldn't Texas CHL Instructors be held to some sort Code of Ethics and higher standards? Afterall, what one learns OR does not learn in one's CHL class can land one's CHL heinie in the Gray Bar Hotel for a long time and his loved ones on the street.

Surely, it isn't just about the money?

Judging by some of the posts I've read recently, I'm thinking some of his students are posting here.....


Seriously, though, if DPS is going to do some due dilligence in auditing the instructor, whats the harm of reporting him? Being audited is the price of doing business with the state.

Oldgringo wrote:Doctors, Laywyers, Engineers, Accountants, Indian Chiefs, Bakers and Candlestick Makers all have some sort of Code of Ethics and standards.

Shouldn't Texas CHL Instructors be held to some sort Code of Ethics and higher standards? Afterall, what one learns OR does not learn in one's CHL class can land one's CHL heinie in the Gray Bar Hotel for a long time and his loved ones on the street.

Surely, it isn't just about the money?

They are... ...by the DPS. If you are suggesting that there should be some professional organization, like the State Bar, or the AMA, that certifies that a person is qualified to teach, well, you're just adding another layer of oversight that may or may not prevent someone from violating the organization's ethics. AMA members commit malpractice every day. Ditto members of the Texas Bar Association. But they also get to charge more on their bills because of the additional costs of getting admitted to the Bar or being certified in Obstetrics. So if there were a professional organization to which a DPS qualified instructor had to join in order to practice their profession, you can bet that the cost of instruction would go up. Texas is already one of the most expensive states in the union in which to get a carry permit. Should it cost more?