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Excaliber wrote:

MoJo wrote:Here's my take on this subject. Carry as much or as little ammunition as you see necessary. 90% of all handgun malfunctions are caused by operator error and/or magazine problems. There is little one can do about a brain fade except train; if your mag goes south on you you can replace it and keep on fighting. I carry my M&P 40 and one or two spare mags and a .38 snubby with two tuff strips total round count 60 if two spare M&P mags. Too much ammo? Not if things really go into the toilet.

On the subject of +1 do what makes you feel best. I quit +1 in my double stack guns simply because whenever I had to unload couldn't decide what to do with the loose round.

You could improve tactical readiness by loading the chamber and underloading the magazine by one cartridge. When you unload the gun, you can put the round from the chamber back in the magazine where it's ready for reloading into the chamber.

One less round in the magazine would be much less of a disadvantage in a bad situation than an empty chamber when you may not have enough hands available to manage that in a hurry.

Excaliber beat me to it.

The Annoyed Man wrote:That's kind of a question without a right answer. Carry what makes you feel comfortable. Personally, I'm in the habit of carrying the magazine topped off with one in the pipe, plus one extra magazine - regardless of what I'm carrying. That means if it is my Kimber Ultra, it's a total of 15 rounds. If it's my 5" Springfield, it's a total 17 rounds. If it's my M&P 45, it's a total of 21 rounds. In the other direction, if it's my .357 snubbie, it's a total of 10 rounds.

The only exception to that is when I use my shoulder holster, in which case I carry a second spare magazine in the mag holder; but that is only to balance the load a bit and not because I feel like I need the extra rounds.

The average exchange of fire in a gun fight is 2 to 3 rounds. So even if you carry a 1911 with 7 round magazines and you don't top off the one in the gun, you likely have 6-7 times as many rounds as you'll actually need in a shooting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.... there is no feeling so low as being in a war zone without sufficient ammo yada yada yada. I don't live in a war zone. I live in suburban Grapevine, Texas, and I don't pretend to be a ninja warrior. I'm too old and fat for that stuff. If 10-31 rounds of handgun ammo (depending on carry configuration) isn't enough, then I should have brought a long gun, in which case I should have avoided going outside in the first place.

Averages are deceiving.

In the gunfights my agency experienced during my service years, I can't think of any gunfights that fell within those numbers. Some shootings where the BG was taken out before he got any rounds off did, but those aren't technically gunfights, even though guns were involved on both sides.

Most of the actual gunfights I remember ran between 7 and 90 rounds, the latter being a multi officer engagement with a determined member of a terrorist group during a kidnapping - an unlikely problem for a CHL holder.

Although I know it's statistically rare for folks to be struck by lightning, I've seen enough cases of it happening to stay away from open fields and trees during thunderstorms. Likewise, I don't make my readiness decisions based on shots fired averages because real gunfights are all single data points in those average numbers. The actual single incident shot counts range all over the scale.

The rare incident you're involved in is the only one that counts, not the average in lots of other events that happen to others, and there's no way to ascertain in advance what the tactical situation or ammo requirements will be. Higher numbers of available rounds prepare you to successfully manage more possible cases. I like to stack the factors I can control in my favor because there will be more than enough other factors to manage during an actual event, and some of those won't be leaning my way.

I set my minimum ammo load at a full pistol and one full spare. My usual practice is 2 full spare magazines, and I increase that count when I anticipate a heightened potential for trouble.

Excaliber wrote:

MoJo wrote:Here's my take on this subject. Carry as much or as little ammunition as you see necessary. 90% of all handgun malfunctions are caused by operator error and/or magazine problems. There is little one can do about a brain fade except train; if your mag goes south on you you can replace it and keep on fighting. I carry my M&P 40 and one or two spare mags and a .38 snubby with two tuff strips total round count 60 if two spare M&P mags. Too much ammo? Not if things really go into the toilet.

On the subject of +1 do what makes you feel best. I quit +1 in my double stack guns simply because whenever I had to unload couldn't decide what to do with the loose round.

You could improve tactical readiness by loading the chamber and underloading the magazine by one cartridge. When you unload the gun, you can put the round from the chamber back in the magazine where it's ready for reloading into the chamber.

One less round in the magazine would be much less of a disadvantage in a bad situation than an empty chamber when you may not have enough hands available to manage that in a hurry.

The way I look at it is an empty gun is an empty gun; it doesn't matter if you start off with a 5 shot snubby, a 17+1 G17, or a SAW with 200 rounds of linked ammo - - - when you are out of ammo you need to reload or switch guns. This is the reason Jim Cirillo carried multiple guns and the reason I carry two or three guns. New York Reloads rock!!!!!

If you need to pull up 2 guns, better reach for that 21 rd drum shooting 12g lead. from something called Saiga 12. Zombie time

MoJo wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

MoJo wrote:Here's my take on this subject. Carry as much or as little ammunition as you see necessary. 90% of all handgun malfunctions are caused by operator error and/or magazine problems. There is little one can do about a brain fade except train; if your mag goes south on you you can replace it and keep on fighting. I carry my M&P 40 and one or two spare mags and a .38 snubby with two tuff strips total round count 60 if two spare M&P mags. Too much ammo? Not if things really go into the toilet.

On the subject of +1 do what makes you feel best. I quit +1 in my double stack guns simply because whenever I had to unload couldn't decide what to do with the loose round.

You could improve tactical readiness by loading the chamber and underloading the magazine by one cartridge. When you unload the gun, you can put the round from the chamber back in the magazine where it's ready for reloading into the chamber.

One less round in the magazine would be much less of a disadvantage in a bad situation than an empty chamber when you may not have enough hands available to manage that in a hurry.

The way I look at it is an empty gun is an empty gun; it doesn't matter if you start off with a 5 shot snubby, a 17+1 G17, or a SAW with 200 rounds of linked ammo - - - when you are out of ammo you need to reload or switch guns. This is the reason Jim Cirillo carried multiple guns and the reason I carry two or three guns. New York Reloads rock!!!!!

New York reloads are great for times when use of the primary weapon becomes unavailable, but an empty chamber on the larger, higher capacity weapon would seem to make it less immediately useful than the smaller, lower capacity, smaller sight radius backup which becomes in effect the primary in a very bad situation.

I can't get my mind around why this would be a good idea, but I may still be missing something here.

OK, just to make sure anyone that doesn't notice my original post edit.

I'm NOT talking about carrying with 1 in the pipe or not.

I WILL ALWAYS CARRY WITH A ROUND CHAMBERED.

I'm just talking about chambering a round and then adding that 1 round back to the mag or just chambering the round and leaving the full mag -1 in the gun.

I guess yes, I did have 2 questions,

1 top off the mag
2 how many rounds/extra mags (0, 1, 2) to carry

Thanks all, this is interesting reading. I guess I'm going to want to get a mag holder.

Excaliber wrote:

MoJo wrote:On the subject of +1 do what makes you feel best. I quit +1 in my double stack guns simply because whenever I had to unload couldn't decide what to do with the loose round.

You could improve tactical readiness by loading the chamber and underloading the magazine by one cartridge. When you unload the gun, you can put the round from the chamber back in the magazine where it's ready for reloading into the chamber.

One less round in the magazine would be much less of a disadvantage in a bad situation than an empty chamber when you may not have enough hands available to manage that in a hurry.

That's still N rounds, not N+1 rounds, unless you swap for a full magazine.

tacticool wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

MoJo wrote:On the subject of +1 do what makes you feel best. I quit +1 in my double stack guns simply because whenever I had to unload couldn't decide what to do with the loose round.

You could improve tactical readiness by loading the chamber and underloading the magazine by one cartridge. When you unload the gun, you can put the round from the chamber back in the magazine where it's ready for reloading into the chamber.

One less round in the magazine would be much less of a disadvantage in a bad situation than an empty chamber when you may not have enough hands available to manage that in a hurry.

That's still N rounds, not N+1 rounds, unless you swap for a full magazine.

Being a 1-handed person, that's exactly what I'd do if the extra "loose" round really bothered me. So I'd have N+1 ready to go, and N-1 in a spare mag.... I"ll never do well on timed reloads with only 1 hand.

My buddy, Officer Jeff Ginn might be alive if he'd had a 7-shot revolver. (shot at close range in the head while reloading) ... Jeff had 2 hands.

smasraum wrote:OK, just to make sure anyone that doesn't notice my original post edit.

I'm NOT talking about carrying with 1 in the pipe or not.

I WILL ALWAYS CARRY WITH A ROUND CHAMBERED.

I'm just talking about chambering a round and then adding that 1 round back to the mag or just chambering the round and leaving the full mag -1 in the gun.

I guess yes, I did have 2 questions,

1 top off the mag
2 how many rounds/extra mags (0, 1, 2) to carry

Thanks all, this is interesting reading. I guess I'm going to want to get a mag holder.

Yes - after I chamber a round I top off the mag so it's full again and carry a full spare mag in my pocket.

I have a lot of double vertical or horizontal mag holders, but I actually don't use them, when my primary runs out of gas, I pull my BUG and have it ready while my spare mags are in a pocket.... I need to get some single mag carriers that are horizontal, but I'd still probably not use them ... just habit now.

The holster I wear the most IWB has a mag carrier attached and I use it. (Desantis Tuck This 2) with another in a pocket.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFcAbvB4Nok" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Tuck This 2 video (I put sticky back Velcro on the clip, because my belt has Velcro sewn in)

When I start reading about lots of people complaining about having too much ammo after a gunfight, I'll think about not topping off my magazine.

Until then, I'll continue to carry N+1 in the pistol and 1 or 2 full spare mags.

My normal carry is a Kimber Ultra, so I have 7+1 in the pistol and 2 spare 7-rounders for a total of 22 rounds.

tacticool wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

MoJo wrote:On the subject of +1 do what makes you feel best. I quit +1 in my double stack guns simply because whenever I had to unload couldn't decide what to do with the loose round.

You could improve tactical readiness by loading the chamber and underloading the magazine by one cartridge. When you unload the gun, you can put the round from the chamber back in the magazine where it's ready for reloading into the chamber.

One less round in the magazine would be much less of a disadvantage in a bad situation than an empty chamber when you may not have enough hands available to manage that in a hurry.

That's still N rounds, not N+1 rounds, unless you swap for a full magazine.

True.

However, one less round, especially in a high cap magazine, makes a relatively small difference from N+1 with a round chambered and another mag available and ready to go, and it presents far fewer issues than an empty chamber.

I wouldn't consider reducing the round count by one a big deal - unless it was done on the day when you encounter a fight where you need every last round.

Since I never could get the hang of figuring out when that might happen, I carry all magazines at full capacity.

Excaliber wrote:Although I know it's statistically rare for folks to be struck by lightning, I've seen enough cases of it happening to stay away from open fields and trees during thunderstorms. Likewise, I don't make my readiness decisions based on shots fired averages because real gunfights are all single data points in those average numbers. The actual single incident shot counts range all over the scale.

This is the crux of the matter. You don't carry for what you expect. You carry for what you wouldn't expect. And there is another excellent point in Excaliber's nugget of wisdom; don't put yourself in the position where lightening can strike. It may still strike, and you'd better pray you were ready. But you don't stand near metal poles or play golf in a thunderstorm for a reason. Don't go to places where it's much more likely that you might have to use your weapon.

One more thing from personal experience. If you aren't practicing reloads, you need to be. I went to my first IDPA match a little while ago and found myself fumbling to get my mags out and get reloaded. You've got to practice what you will have to do in a emergency. Otherwise all your protection goes out the window.

EDIT: Forgot to answer the OP's question. I carry a Sig P39 with 7 round mags +1 in the chamber. So 15 rounds total on body is my minimum.

baldeagle wrote:But you don't stand near metal poles or play golf in a thunderstorm for a reason.

That's the only time I can get a tee time.

If I carry +1 depends on the gun and mag. If all rounds fit easy in the mag and the mag fits easy in the gun, I carry +1. Some mags are hard for last round and have to slam hard to get the full mag in the gun with the slide forward, so I don't +1 because I worry about failing either the mag or mag latch in that gun. I carry one spare mag for double stack gun or pocket bug. If I had a full size single stack I would carry two spares in almost same width as double stack.Like the OP, I always carry with a round in the chamber.

Excaliber wrote:

MoJo wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

MoJo wrote:Here's my take on this subject. Carry as much or as little ammunition as you see necessary. 90% of all handgun malfunctions are caused by operator error and/or magazine problems. There is little one can do about a brain fade except train; if your mag goes south on you you can replace it and keep on fighting. I carry my M&P 40 and one or two spare mags and a .38 snubby with two tuff strips total round count 60 if two spare M&P mags. Too much ammo? Not if things really go into the toilet.

On the subject of +1 do what makes you feel best. I quit +1 in my double stack guns simply because whenever I had to unload couldn't decide what to do with the loose round.

You could improve tactical readiness by loading the chamber and underloading the magazine by one cartridge. When you unload the gun, you can put the round from the chamber back in the magazine where it's ready for reloading into the chamber.

One less round in the magazine would be much less of a disadvantage in a bad situation than an empty chamber when you may not have enough hands available to manage that in a hurry.

The way I look at it is an empty gun is an empty gun; it doesn't matter if you start off with a 5 shot snubby, a 17+1 G17, or a SAW with 200 rounds of linked ammo - - - when you are out of ammo you need to reload or switch guns. This is the reason Jim Cirillo carried multiple guns and the reason I carry two or three guns. New York Reloads rock!!!!!

New York reloads are great for times when use of the primary weapon becomes unavailable, but an empty chamber on the larger, higher capacity weapon would seem to make it less immediately useful than the smaller, lower capacity, smaller sight radius backup which becomes in effect the primary in a very bad situation.

I can't get my mind around why this would be a good idea, but I may still be missing something here.

Out in the open - fire coming my way - trying to get my old, gimpy, butt behind cover - is no time to try to reload anything. I can reach into my weakside pocket and pull a snub and continue to attempt to suppress the BG's fire without jacking around with reloading. Behind cover - - - I'll do an emergency reload to the primary because, the BUG is just that a BACK UP GUN!

There are times, not frequently, I do carry two M&P40s. In that scenario what would you do? Reload? Or draw the other pistol? I don't know about you but my draw times are a lot quicker than my reloads.

There is no right or wrong answer to this question, we are all responsible for out own salvation. As Evan Marshall has said; "No reasonable man or woman will willingly go into a gunfight armed only with a handgun." If I KNOW there is a chance of a gunfight, I'll - - - 1. won't go, 2. bring a rifle or shotgun, 3. bring both a rifle and shotgun, 4. bring all my friends who have rifles and shotguns, 5. call for artillery and close air support.