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Ameer, I understand your points and would agree with them completely... if this thread were not about elementary school kids. In Texas, most middle schools start with 6th grade which means that the highest grade level that you have in an elementary is 5th grade. If you use the logic that most kids start 1st grade at age 6, the 5th graders are going to be in the 10-11yo range.

I freely admit that in some places, 10yos can be street hardened punks but don't believe that is the norm. I would also submit that while dealing the an LEO might scare the stuffing out of most elementary aged kids, those that are street hardened are not going to be influenced any more by an LEO than a street hardened 16yo is.

As a certified teacher, I believe that there is and has been an abdication of responsibility by school administrations and some teachers as well as parents. This is the same mentality that provides social promotions and zero tolerance policies. It helps those involved avoid having to try to deal with difficult students. Let's just turn them over to the police or better yet ignore them completely.

I realize and fully agree that there are some kids for whom interaction with the law may be the only solution. But it also should be a last resort. It is almost ironic that another thread running right now shows how making things fun can get adults to do things that they wouldn't other wise do like take the stairs instead of an escalator or use hand sanitizer in a flu epidemic. We've turned many schools into such miserable, totalitarian environments that are almost devoid of the joy over learning because they are run by the same kind of power hungry control freaks that take up positions in our governments. No wonder kids don't want to go and rebel when they are there. A politically correct, one size fits all method of education works for very few kids. The smart ones are bored and the slower ones are lost. From such environments, discipline problems can run rampant. Good teaching is about inspiring the kids, even the tough to reach ones. There are great stories about teachers and administrators in some of the toughest areas our country turning their schools around even at the high school level. At the elementary school level, if you have dozens of kids with no alternatives besides LEOs, you are doing something wrong.

I think you just described perfectly what bothers me about this trend. Its not that there is never a place for this, but making it the norm for any but the most grievous situation is not the answer.

I am concerned a lot of these kids will get a real sour impression of the police before long. LEOs won't be the good guys who come to their rescue. How long before the police are disliked, even hated, by the kids because of the constant reminders they dole out the tickets? An example of this is the negative attitudes toward the police of kids who like to skateboard. The skater kids often become anti-cop because local LEOs get the job of kicking them off sidewalks, make them stop jumping stairs, etc. when they don't have local skateparks to go to. I've seen this in action and watched kids go from neutral to negative when a more positive relationship with the police would have prevented it. What will schools do to promote that better relationship when they call the cops over cuss words at an elementary school?

I think that the point of this topic/thread is that parents and the entire community have abandoned the entire concept of family responsibility, and school "discipline" has come down to issuing children tickets.

So the question that arises in my mind is this:

Do we accept the present status quo and let Law Enforcement become our students surrogate parents or do we reverse the last 4+ decades of social engineering that has made it a literal crime to properly parent and once again resume that responsibility?

[and do we tolerate run-on sentences such as the one above?]

TexasGal wrote:I am concerned a lot of these kids will get a real sour impression of the police before long.

My personal favorite is when I'm minding my own business eating lunch, and some parent with their little walks by and points and says "I'm gonna have that officer take you away if you don't act right."

Purplehood wrote:So the question that arises in my mind is this:

Do we accept the present status quo and let Law Enforcement become our students surrogate parents or do we reverse the last 4+ decades of social engineering that has made it a literal crime to properly parent and once again resume that responsibility?

[and do we tolerate run-on sentences such as the one above?]

This is one of the reasons I'm hesitant to have children of our own, because you can't discipline children any more. The idea that sitting in a corner, or getting a "time out" is going to change a childs behavior is infantile at best, and giving them way too much credit. The application of swift decicive correction at the appropriate time teaches them that there are consequenses to their actions. Much like the mother wolf gives a nip and a growl to an unrully cub, parents should be able to do the same.

I'm not sure I understand the whole "physical punishment is abuse" argument. I fully support that sometims I had the snot wacked out of me, and have told my parents such. There are some children who do not listen to words, and I was one of them . I would not be the person I am today without that reinforcement. For the same reason I that when I was 10 I didn't try and intimidate someone double my age and 2 feet taller than me (as seems to happen now-a-days ). As for the topic of "abuse", my mother was abused when she was a child, and I have come to define abuse as lasting bruises, lascerations, broken bones, intentional ciggerette/cigar burns, NOT a swat on the rear which only offers momentary discomfort. When we start grouping spanking and beating till bloody into the same group as "abuse" I feel we have lost the resolution needed to seperate the correction, from the true abuse.

Willow switch...applied with a stinging "thwack" to my backside three times whenever Mom had to count all the way to "three". Sure didn't ruin my sense of self esteem or my relationship to society. She was not in a fury, didn't call me names, didn't blame my bad behavior on my dad, etc. She explained patiently why I was getting punished and looked sincerely sorry i had put her in such a spot. Loving discipline is completely different than abuse. Period. I love and respect both my parents for guiding me and setting examples of living life with honor, ethics, and responsibility. We need to get back to that.

I went to Catholic schools just like one of the previous posters. Even in elementary grades the sisters knew how to twist an ear or apply a wooden ruler to the knuckles. They got and kept the attention of even the most unruly kids and nobody else wanted any of that. By the time I was in high school (the 70s) there were fewer sisters, but the lay teachers would still send students to the sisters for discipline.

I know there were some bad actors at my high school. Some were there because they were kicked out of public school. But I just don't remember any major discipline issues ever happening at the school. There was too much respect for authority. I can still hear one of the sisters who used to say, "I expect you to act like ladies and gentlemen and as long as you do, that is how you will be treated. But if you don't, you should remember that I have the wrath of God on my side." And I can't remember her apologizing for using it even once.