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This sounds like a rehash of a "problem" from a few years back.

In the early days of TSA, when the name meant "Thousands Standing Around" instead of the pejorative and scatological terminology used since, we found time to "fuss around" with some of the equipment and try out some scenarios. Love Field here in Dallas had, at the time, a large and for the most part abandoned terminal, where some of us would go to hide when we were told to do so, and not be in the public eye.

One of the subjects that came up during those early days was just how much energy a hand held laser would deliver over significant range. Several of us were ex-engineers with experience in measuring all kinds of stuff, so we put our minds to building a test range to see just how much energy a laser could deliver. Now our experiments were strictly ad hoc, with totally uncalibrated equipment, but the information we did gather was somewhat "eye opening" as it were.

First, we found that aiming such a device by hand over any significant distance resulted in the "dot" jumping all over the place from uncontrolled bodily motions (heartbeat, muscle tremor, etc) so hitting a two inch light meter target at 50 meters was kind of spotty to say the least. We set up a clamped down test bench and achieved better steadiness, but when we used some mirrors (Edmund Scientific) to increase the range covered, we got to the point that anyone even moving near the table where the lasers were set up resulted in significant motion of the "dot" at the other end.

We found that the worse the collimation of the pointer, the lower energy got transmitted over the ranges tested, and the CTC Laser Grip off my .45 (brought in without the gun attached of course) was one of the worst beams, spreading to several inches by the time it got to 50 meters. Most of the junky ones that we picked up here and there, keychain, pocket pointer and such, were also right at the bottom when it came to beam spreading, and it wasn't until our resident techno geek brought in the one he paid a lot of money for (Edmund Scientific again, about $300.00) that we were able to get the beam to bounce up and down our range several times. That one delivered a well collimated beam that was only a couple of inches in diameter when it reached the target, and it delivered many dB more power than the toys we had been fooling with.

We never did get any real good statistics from our experiments, we were using a light meter that measured the entire spectrum, and were not controlling for other variables, but heck, we were just playing around. TSA decided, just about the time that we were ready to get into real fun stuff, that we should actually work for a living and that was the end of that.

But having been involved with that, and some other experimentation I have done at the range with laser sights, it would truly surprise me if anyone would be able to hand hold a laser pointer with sufficient accuracy to hold it on a plane cockpit for more than just a flash at a time.

Keith B wrote:On approach most modern passenger jets (MD 80, Airbus A300, or similar size) are about 180 knots (207 MPH) nominal approach speed fully loaded.

Most of these events reported are within the vicinity of airports and on approach. And, the angle they are being lit up at is not from the side, but from the front within about 60 degrees of center line. Think about sitting at the airport off the end of the runway in the observation area and how easy it is to see the plane coming at you and look into the nose of the plane, even if off at an slight angle. Not too hard to sweep the pointer around and cross the path of something coming at you. Also, a laser beam may be narrow at the pointer, but you put it out to 1.5 - 2 miles, and the beam has spread out quite a bit. So while it may be a 10th of an inch or less at your end, when it gets that far out it may be 6-8 inches or more in diameter. So, not hard to light something up with that.

The power doesn't increase after the beam leaves the laser. If it's 100mW at the lens then it can be at most 100mW at 100 yards or 1000 yards. Probably less because it's not a vacuum so energy is absorbed by the air. Plus if you spread out the beam, it's less concentrated, so the energy in each square inch is less.

I'm not saying stupid people don't shine lasers at airplanes but I am questioning the actual risk. Not the same media hysteria that says nobody needs a magazine that holds more than ten rounds, but the actual risk.

jimlongley wrote:First, we found that aiming such a device by hand over any significant distance resulted in the "dot" jumping all over the place from uncontrolled bodily motions (heartbeat, muscle tremor, etc) so hitting a two inch light meter target at 50 meters was kind of spotty to say the least.

This is one of the reasons I've never been able to adjust to a laser sight for any of my pistols. The dot jumping around is such a distraction to me that I have difficulty concentrating on the target. And if I can't concentrate on the target, then I shouldn't be pulling the trigger.

jimlongley wrote:...it would truly surprise me if anyone would be able to hand hold a laser pointer with sufficient accuracy to hold it on a plane cockpit for more than just a flash at a time.

I agree with this. When I say "blind" a pilot, I don't mean literally blind him/her, but simply the temporary dazzling effect of a laser beam flashing across the eye. It may not damage the eye, but it might certainly leave spots floating around in their vision temporarily, much like the effect of a camera flash, at a critical juncture of the flight when they need to monitor cockpit instruments and controls.

Secondarily, although my memory may be flawed, I recall that the original uproar of this stuff was early in the war on terror and had less to do with a fear of blinding pilots as much as it had to do with causing them unnecessary alarm that a terrorist might be targeting them with some kind of shoulder launched missile.

jimlongley wrote:This sounds like a rehash of a "problem" from a few years back.

First, we found that aiming such a device by hand over any significant distance resulted in the "dot" jumping all over the place from uncontrolled bodily motions (heartbeat, muscle tremor, etc) so hitting a two inch light meter target at 50 meters was kind of spotty to say the least.

<snip>

But having been involved with that, and some other experimentation I have done at the range with laser sights, it would truly surprise me if anyone would be able to hand hold a laser pointer with sufficient accuracy to hold it on a plane cockpit for more than just a flash at a time.

So, instead of having a constant light, they now have what could be a strobing effect in the cockpit.

(Sorry, didn't realize the age of this thread...)

My buddy is not one to misuse one, but he recently showed me his new 'toy', a 20mw laser designator that claims a five mile range.

http://www.lasergenetics.com/nd5-laser-designator.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His rationalization was that it can be used as a hunting flashlight without wrecking your night vision.

It allows focusing of the beam.

It certainly is impressive.

IIRC, the Luxor hotel (the pyramid) in Las Vegas had a bright white light (laser? IDK)
that shone out of its building and was causing problems with pilots. I believe they turned
down the wattage or something once the complaints started.

SIA

Ameer wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:My new M&P15-22 came equipped with a green laser pointer mounted that has a bright green dot clearly visible at 100 yards in broad daylight, nearly as bright as it is up close indoors. I would not want it shined in my eyes. Brand new, it cost the original owner $99.00, so it's not like they are hugely expensive. I imagine that it would not be that hard to blind a pilot on landing or takeoff with it. Of course I would never do that. That's just dumb.

How fast do commercial jets fly? 500mph? How big is an eyeball? An inch?

I think it would be easier to hit a flying dove with a 22 than hit a one inch eyeball moving at hundreds of miles of hour.

Not just hitting an eyeball,, but hitting the windscreen causes a light flash in the cabin, and reflected light is just as disorienting or damaging.

It.s been a problem for us in Iraq and afgainistain for years....the toy style 200 mw ones you see here and much more powerful ones were handed out like candy as a less lethal weapon to do escalation of force. So many civ, us patrols, us AC got lazed the use was stopped for a while Country wide while new rules of use and education was sent out.

Mike1951 wrote:My buddy is not one to misuse one, but he recently showed me his new 'toy', a 20mw laser designator that claims a five mile range.

http://www.lasergenetics.com/nd5-laser-designator.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His rationalization was that it can be used as a hunting flashlight without wrecking your night vision.

It allows focusing of the beam.

It certainly is impressive.

I wish they would follow standard protocol on their page and show what the power is, instead of confusing the issue by claiming 20 Megawatts in one place (burn a hole in the sky, or at least thin sheets of metal like those laser machining setups you can buy) and 20 milliwatts in the other (still more powerful than laser sights at about 5mW) The toy ones are closer to 200 uW (u = micro, 200 microwatts is 1/5 of a milliwatt and 1/25 of a laser sight.) If you read to the bottom, in the technical specs, you find that they actually claim "<20mW" which is "less than 20 milliwatts", 200 mW is pretty powerful in the pantheon of lasers.

To those of us aquainted with such things "MW" and "mW" have vastly different meanings.

S3ARCTIC SERIES FOR $299 AT wickedlasers.com looks like a lightsaber!
Name: S3 Series
FDA Accession No.: 0920211-000
Size: 228mm x 35.8mm
Weight: 378g
Wavelength: 445nm
Laser Body: 6061-T6 Aircraft-Grade Aluminum
Laser Finish: Mil-Spec Type III hard anodized in black
Transverse Mode: TEM00
Max Power: 1000mW
Min Power: 500mW
Beam Divergence: 1.5mRad
Beam Diameter: 5.0 mm
NOHD* 149 meters
Beam Distance 0.25 Lux 6856 meters
Required Eyewear O.D. 3.0+
Power Consumption: 3.7V @ 1A
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Switch: Push Button Constant On / Off, Lock-Out Tail Cap, Electronic Mode switch
Mode: Low and High Power modes, Pulsed and Constant Wave modes, Secure Lock/Unlock modes
Duty Cycle: Continuous
Expected lifetime: >5,000 hours
Warranty: One Year

CNN Apparently, the Force is strong in a Hong Kong-based laser company that had irked the creators of "Star Wars."

GIZMODO The Spyder III, the World's Most Powerful Portable Laser, Is a Real Life Lightsaber.

GUINNESS WORLD RECORDS The most powerful handheld laser in the world.

GUINNESS WORLD RECORDS The most powerful handheld laser in the world.

FOX NEWS The device -- with a beam 1,000 times stronger than sunlight on the skin -- is touted by makers as "the most dangerous laser ever created."

WALL STREET JOURNAL The "most dangerous laser ever created" may sound like the perfect gift for the supervillain who has everything

THE SUN The laser is 1,000 times stronger than the green laser pointers which are available to the public.

NEWS.COM.AU The laser is 1,000 times stronger than the The Astronomical Society of Australia says any power over 20mW is "excessive", making the Spyder III fifty times stronger than what's needed to point out planets and stars.

Some years ago I bought one of the green laser models from Wicked Lasers. I believe the model had four different power ratings and the one I bought was second from the bottom, about $40. At that time they'd give a range (don't remember what it was based on) and mine was given as 165 miles. Using it to point out stars and constellations I can certainly believe that. I've lit up buildings 10-15 blocks away at night with a very bright dot. So I have no doubt that flashing a cockpit with this would at the least be startling, probably disorienting for a moment or two, and quite likely cause flash blindness if it hit the pilots eyes.

1 watt laser that can pop popcorn, and burn through stuff.

http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Spyd ... 96-37.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


There are lasers that can do serious damage to your eyes. This is one of them. My father is an airline pilot, and he has been pretty worried about lasers. It has always been an issue, and the military does know that people do this. They even equip their pilots with visors that will block out lasers because there were some targeting devices that would be used against aircraft that could blind the pilot.

With that said, pilots make their money with their eyes. If they have a degradation of eye sight, or blindness they loose their jobs. Something to take into consideration.

It doesn't have to take sustained pointing at the cockpit to damage someones eyes. It just takes one stray shot. And I know that kids not realizing the damage they do, may be doing this just for fun.


Link of State patrol Airplane hit with laser

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG3X7UkY ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bah was a bit late on the wicked laser thing... but I gave the link lol.

What I am trying to say is, lasers, like guns, should be treated with respect. I have fun playing with lasers and I would hate to have any more legislation prohibiting lasers because they are useful and fun. I guess the biggest problem are the kids, and kooks who get a hold of them and try to cause problems, just like the kids, and kooks who get a hold of guns and try to cause problems.

[/quote]
So, instead of having a constant light, they now have what could be a strobing effect in the cockpit.

(Sorry, didn't realize the age of this thread...)[/quote]

I would say put up a disco ball and invite a stewardess in, but these days I am afraid of what she (or he) would look like.....