My first CHL-related incident with HPD

[Oldgringo]

Did I overreact...

Yep!! All the wrong moves - afraid you escalated this one bud!!

, in two words: "STUPID & IRRESPONSIBLE". You say that you're 52? Yours is the action of a 7th grader. You should surrender your CHL...if it's not taken from you.

As I've opined before, paying the fees and taking the course is not all that is required to be a Texas CH licensee.

[TxDrifter]

Did I overreact...

Yep!! All the wrong moves - afraid you escalated this one bud!!

The finger should have never flown up. The fact you have the CHL, not even with your gun on you, means you should know that the ego and the temper should have been checked when you roll out of bed every morning.

[pbwalker]

You know getting into a scuffle with an individual and being punched doesn't justify drawing of your weapon.

Not always true...

[Rebel]

You know getting into a scuffle with an individual and being punched doesn't justify drawing of your weapon.

Not always true...

Of course there are always exceptions, but the OP wasn't being beat close to unconsciousness by some guy who was a foot taller and outweighed him by hundreds of pounds. If that was the case I'm sure he wouldn't have given him the bird.

The point was the OP created the situation for all intent, then when things got verbal he drew his weapon, which was completely out of line. Like I posted having a CHL doesn't give you a license to be belligerent.

Some people need to learn that getting a smack doesn't require you to pull a gun.

This is where I think using your gun to stop the threat would be justified.

EDITED DUE TO LANGUAGE IN VIDEO

here is a link instead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0PQ4p8l ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HotLeadSolutions]

Far from a "G" Rated response. Although I do agree that the video above constitutes use of force, the video is not ok for these forums.

[baldeagle]

You state

I know the state laws concerning CHL holders, use of force, and justification pretty well.

But clearly you don't. You created/escalated the situation(he gave you a thumbs up, you gave him the bird), then you drew your gun because he started yelling at you while you were in a vehicle. How was your life in danger? What would you have done if he had taken a swing at you? You know getting into a scuffle with an individual and being punched doesn't justify drawing of your weapon. This wasn't a mob of guys or someone with a weapon of some sort, just a guy yelling at you.

A point made over and over again during both my CHL classes was that as a CHL holder you had to hold yourself up to a higher standard and to avoid putting yourself in bad situation. It's not a license to be "belligerent".

You went way overboard, plain and simple.

You are so wrong it's not even funny! A punch is deadly force and may be met with deadly force in response. Plain and simple.

A while back a man was in his car in traffic when another driver got out of his car and approached his window screaming at him. The guy had a tire iron in his hand and was threatening to break the window to get at the guy. The trapped driver drew his weapon and shot the guy dead. He was no-billed by the grand jury.

The OP was trapped in his car when he was approached by a man who was obviously agitated. He should not have given the guy the finger, but that still doesn't justify the guy threatening him. He was well within his rights to draw his weapon in an effort to protect himself should the incident escalate further. And had the guy even threatened to punch him, he would have been justified in shooting him. He did not display the weapon or threaten the man with the weapon. I suppose an overly aggressive prosecutor might try to do something with this incident, but any lawyer worth his salt would get the charges thrown out.

We have CHLs for a reason - to protect ourselves from precisely the kind of people the OP encountered.

[baldeagle]

I am surprised you weren't cited for brandishing

{{{{{sigh}}}}}} There is no law for brandishing in Texas.

[Rebel]

You state

I know the state laws concerning CHL holders, use of force, and justification pretty well.

But clearly you don't. You created/escalated the situation(he gave you a thumbs up, you gave him the bird), then you drew your gun because he started yelling at you while you were in a vehicle. How was your life in danger? What would you have done if he had taken a swing at you? You know getting into a scuffle with an individual and being punched doesn't justify drawing of your weapon. This wasn't a mob of guys or someone with a weapon of some sort, just a guy yelling at you.

A point made over and over again during both my CHL classes was that as a CHL holder you had to hold yourself up to a higher standard and to avoid putting yourself in bad situation. It's not a license to be "belligerent".

You went way overboard, plain and simple.

You are so wrong it's not even funny! A punch is deadly force and may be met with deadly force in response. Plain and simple.

A while back a man was in his car in traffic when another driver got out of his car and approached his window screaming at him. The guy had a tire iron in his hand and was threatening to break the window to get at the guy. The trapped driver drew his weapon and shot the guy dead. He was no-billed by the grand jury.

The OP was trapped in his car when he was approached by a man who was obviously agitated. He should not have given the guy the finger, but that still doesn't justify the guy threatening him. He was well within his rights to draw his weapon in an effort to protect himself should the incident escalate further. And had the guy even threatened to punch him, he would have been justified in shooting him. He did not display the weapon or threaten the man with the weapon. I suppose an overly aggressive prosecutor might try to do something with this incident, but any lawyer worth his salt would get the charges thrown out.

We have CHLs for a reason - to protect ourselves from precisely the kind of people the OP encountered.

See that right there, he had a tire iron a.k.a. WEAPON!!! Purely justified. Look at the video link I posted. Reread all my post.

So your telling me that your at Target and some guy takes the last bag of Doritos that you wanted, and you start yelling and using profanity against him, so he takes a swing at you and hits you in the arm, so you pull your gun and shoot him.

Good luck with that one being justified.

The OP created the problem, like I have said now 3 times in this thread, we don't have CHLs to become "brave and belligerent".

[baldeagle]

You know getting into a scuffle with an individual and being punched doesn't justify drawing of your weapon.

Not always true...

Of course there are always exceptions, but the OP wasn't being beat close to unconsciousness by some guy who was a foot taller and outweighed him by hundreds of pounds. If that was the case I'm sure he wouldn't have given him the bird.

The point was the OP created the situation for all intent, then when things got verbal he drew his weapon, which was completely out of line. Like I posted having a CHL doesn't give you a license to be belligerent.

Some people need to learn that getting a smack doesn't require you to pull a gun.

This is where I think using your gun to stop the threat would be justified.

EDITED DUE TO LANGUAGE IN VIDEO

here is a link instead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0PQ4p8l ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please stop posting this stuff. You are completely wrong. One punch constitutes deadly force. There is NO requirement in the law for us to endure a beating "close to unconsciousness" before we draw and use our weapons. If you plan on doing that, please don't carry a weapon, because your assailant will take it from you after he's done and you are lying helpless on the ground.

If a man approaches me with clenched fist and threatens to "punch my lights out", he's going to be staring down the barrel of my P239. If he takes one more step toward me, he will be eating lead. I am NOT going to wait for him to hit me so I can justify shooting him. The law clearly allows me to draw and threaten him if he is threatening me and to fire if he continues to advance. Please learn the law before giving advice.

[baldeagle]

See that right there, he had a tire iron a.k.a. WEAPON!!! Purely justified. Look at the video link I posted. Reread all my post.

So your telling me that your at Target and some guy takes the last bag of Doritos that you wanted, and you start yelling and using profanity against him, so he takes a swing at you and hits you in the arm, so you pull your gun and shoot him.

Good luck with that one being justified.

The OP created the problem, like I have said now 3 times in this thread, we don't have CHLs to become "brave and belligerent".

The OP did not create the problem. Nor did I ever say that you would be justified shooting someone who took the last bag of Doritos. Go read the OP's post. He did not initiate the situation. Neither did he do anything to provoke a violent response from the other guy. I said he was wrong to use the finger. But that still does not justify the other guy approaching him and threatening him.

Living up to a higher standard does not mean we have to take a certain amount of physical abuse before we are allowed to defend ourselves.

[baldeagle]

See that right there, he had a tire iron a.k.a. WEAPON!!! Purely justified. Look at the video link I posted. Reread all my post.

You are not justified in shooting someone who has a weapon. You are justified in shooting them when they have threatened you with the weapon and are approaching you with the clear intent of using it.

A fist is a weapon. You cannot shoot someone because they make a fist. You can shoot them if they are trying to use that fist to punch you. You are not required to wait until after you've been punched to fire, because you may not get the chance to fire if you allow the first punch.

[Rebel]

See that right there, he had a tire iron a.k.a. WEAPON!!! Purely justified. Look at the video link I posted. Reread all my post.

So your telling me that your at Target and some guy takes the last bag of Doritos that you wanted, and you start yelling and using profanity against him, so he takes a swing at you and hits you in the arm, so you pull your gun and shoot him.

Good luck with that one being justified.

The OP created the problem, like I have said now 3 times in this thread, we don't have CHLs to become "brave and belligerent".

The OP did not create the problem. Nor did I ever say that you would be justified shooting someone who took the last bag of Doritos. Go read the OP's post. He did not initiate the situation. Neither did he do anything to provoke a violent response from the other guy. I said he was wrong to use the finger. But that still does not justify the other guy approaching him and threatening him.

Living up to a higher standard does not mean we have to take a certain amount of physical abuse before we are allowed to defend ourselves.

What you have said and implied though is that, if you get into a verbal fight over the last bag of Doritos, if the other person takes a swing at you, you are justified in using lethal force, and you would do so.

We just have different opinions,
1-I would never have responded and escalated that situation if I was in that position, I would have just let it go.
2- We're only hearing one side of the story, why would the other guy give a thumbs up but the OP give the finger? There might be more to this story than we are being told.
3- All things being equal, I'm not pulling out a gun over a punch, because I don't consider that life threatening.

Here is a little interesting read about a CCW holder in Arizona(that is even more pro 2A than Texas) who got into a fight with his neighbors, and even though he was outnumbered it still cost him a lot, financially,emotionally, and his freedom.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/ima ... 2010-9.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gigag04]

I'll reply to what you ask. Please don't take my comments as a personal attack, but as a response for my thoughts, solicited by you. I hope this works out for you and you learn from it. You are most likely in for some lessons.

Did I overreact, or was my unholstering a reasonable reaction to a threat?

You overreacted. Go for your phone instead of your gun next time. Don't flick people off, mockingly return a thumbs up, or get annoyed so easily. In your possession is a device than can kill with the press of a button - it does not leave much room for ego or feelings. Furthermore, if you are such easily frightened by relatively mild provocation, perhaps you should not antagonize annoyed people.

Any idea if the HPD was using standard procedures for this kind of incident? I had no idea that I would be the subject of a homicide investigation.

I think they probably were trying to say an agg assault...not sure. Their response sounds extremely standard. If I was working the case, your gun for sure, and MAYBE you (for an interview), would've been coming with me. Your gun is evidence in a serious crime, and would be indexed at the police department.

Any idea what the odds are of me even getting a call from a detective? How likely is it that I could be prosecuted for anything, and if possible, what? Failure to conceal? Excessive use of force?

You're rolling the dice here. I would get a good lawyer, and maybe some one on one training from some of the active instructors on this forum. Attend some deadly force seminars, and maybe even anger management.

I know that there may have been a better way to deal with the situation, but it was sudden and I felt in imminent danger with nowhere (but also no duty) to retreat, so please don't flame me too much with "what you should've done" replies. I found the whole incident very disturbing; I'd never even been in a police car before and I'm 52. I was surprised at the reaction of Mr. Hothead and at the accusatory implication of a "homicide investigation" directed toward me, the CHL holder, when I thought I was merely taking precautions to defend myself.

I too find the incident very disturbing. "Mr. Hothead's" reaction does not strike me as surprising since he was in such a hurry that he cut you off, he's probably high strung and haughty. Maybe he was just running late and stressed...who knows. But based on what he demonstrated, and you provoking him, I don't find his behavior rare. The situation was less imminent than you would like to think. It took a well connected series of poor decisions and missed opportunities to deescalate or leave on your part to get where it did.

Like I said, I'll hope you learn, and get off with a slap on the wrist. As a member of this forum, you've show that you're interested in being a responsible CHL holder and learning - is impatience at the car wash really the hill you want to die on?


What if "Mr. Hothead" also had a CHL....what does this look like from his perspective.

[KC5AV]

The OP did not create the problem.

Yes, he did. He escalated the situation when he flipped the guy off.
He was not in immediate danger. The guy was standing outside the vehicle yelling at the OP. It's obvious that the windows are not so darkly tinted that the guy couldn't see the OP flip him off, so it is reasonable to expect that the guy will see him maneuvering to get his gun, and see said gun once it clears the holster.
OP did nothing to deescalate the situation. If he'd just kept the bird in its cage, there would be no need for debate.

[heeler]

The OP did not create the problem.

Yes, he did. He escalated the situation when he flipped the guy off.
He was not in immediate danger. The guy was standing outside the vehicle yelling at the OP. It's obvious that the windows are not so darkly tinted that the guy couldn't see the OP flip him off, so it is reasonable to expect that the guy will see him maneuvering to get his gun, and see said gun once it clears the holster.
OP did nothing to deescalate the situation. If he'd just kept the bird in its cage, there would be no need for debate.

Maybe and maybe not.
The poster truely should not have aggravated the situation by flipping the hostile guy off.
However the hothead guy also aggravated the situation with his yelling and coming right up on the guys car window type of tactic.
That alone would unnerve a lot of people.
At that point he had over reacted to the poster flipping him off.
Then the poster goes inside and stays away from the guy but the hothead keeps up the disturbance.
It appears to me since the police let him go and actually gave him back his gun he's more likely than not off the hook and hopefully he and all the rest of us can learn by all of this.
I doubt I would have reacted this way but then again I was not there.