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PappaGun wrote:I am a two year resident of Texas now and there is a lot that takes some getting used to when it comes to traffic.

Where I previously lived, the standards were strictly followed and the speed limits, lane markings, signage etc. were consistent across the state. When I moved to Texas, one of my first comments to my wife was how poorly and inconsistently the lane markings are on the roads. Sometimes the left lane ends, sometimes the right lane ends, sometimes a merge is marked, sometimes it's not. I could go on n on.

Charles comment on the yellow light timing is spot on.

The same discussion was had where I used to live. I can no longer quote the standard, but there is a length of time for yellow lights quantified in hundreths of a second per ten miles an hour. It was shown there that a majority of intersections with red light cameras did not follow the standard (they were shorter, imagine that!) so they changed them and nullified all the tickets.

What Texas has done by adopting "Home Rule" is to insure that a defendant has no recourse and that revenue generation is maximized.

PappaGun, would that have been California? In San Diego, they were actually SHORTENING the yellow lights on intersections when they installed the red-light scameras. They also found the companies that made, installed, processed the pictures, and shared in the revenue from the scameras were installing the sensors in such a way to catch even more people who were not in violation. (You are not in violation unless you cross the line while the light is red. The sensors were installed BEHIND the line.

Ever try to cross-examine a computer with proprietary software in court? The had some officer that presumably had "examined the system" to testify that the camera systems were accurate.

Oh, and as I recall, the fine for red-light running was some $230. May be higher now.

sjfcontrol wrote:

PappaGun wrote:I am a two year resident of Texas now and there is a lot that takes some getting used to when it comes to traffic.

Where I previously lived, the standards were strictly followed and the speed limits, lane markings, signage etc. were consistent across the state. When I moved to Texas, one of my first comments to my wife was how poorly and inconsistently the lane markings are on the roads. Sometimes the left lane ends, sometimes the right lane ends, sometimes a merge is marked, sometimes it's not. I could go on n on.

Charles comment on the yellow light timing is spot on.

The same discussion was had where I used to live. I can no longer quote the standard, but there is a length of time for yellow lights quantified in hundreths of a second per ten miles an hour. It was shown there that a majority of intersections with red light cameras did not follow the standard (they were shorter, imagine that!) so they changed them and nullified all the tickets.

What Texas has done by adopting "Home Rule" is to insure that a defendant has no recourse and that revenue generation is maximized.

PappaGun, would that have been California? In San Diego, they were actually SHORTENING the yellow lights on intersections when they installed the red-light scameras. They also found the companies that made, installed, processed the pictures, and shared in the revenue from the scameras were installing the sensors in such a way to catch even more people who were not in violation. (You are not in violation unless you cross the line while the light is red. The sensors were installed BEHIND the line.

Ever try to cross-examine a computer with proprietary software in court? The had some officer that presumably had "examined the system" to testify that the camera systems were accurate.

Oh, and as I recall, the fine for red-light running was some $230. May be higher now.

New Mexico.

Scameras is a good word for them.

Traffic laws are about money, period.

While I won't argue the fact that revenue generation is the end goal of some traffic laws in many jurisdictions, I WILL argue that traffic laws, and the enforcement of traffic laws, creates a safer environment for citizen drivers.

I have lived and traveled all over the world, and the nations that failed to enforce traffic laws were always far more dangerous than those that did, and the accident and fatality rates, if they were kept, would show that to be true.

-Excessive speed
-Failure to use signals
-Failure to use headlights.....at night
-Failure to use dedicated lanes....or ANY lanes
-Passing on blind corners, hills
-Failure to yield and / or stop
-Using vehicles unsuitable for road / traffic conditions......(think donkey carts, tractors, mopeds, big trucks etc...)

It is literally like Mad Max out there in a lot of places. Free for all. Total chaos.

While I may not agree with all of our posted speed limits / traffic laws, I understand the need for them, and appreciate the fact that we actually enforce them.

I'm not saying there's no reason to have traffic laws; I'm saying the ones we have are designed to generate revenue. If speed limits were set according to proper standards, i.e. the speed at which 80% of drivers drive, then traffic would move much better and there would be fewer accidents. Cities don't want to do that because they lose revenue. The traffic laws I'm addressing are speed limits and red light camera, not use of headlights, turn signals, etc.

Chas.

Texas Dan Mosby wrote:

Traffic laws are about money, period.

While I won't argue the fact that revenue generation is the end goal of some traffic laws in many jurisdictions, I WILL argue that traffic laws, and the enforcement of traffic laws, creates a safer environment for citizen drivers.

I have lived and traveled all over the world, and the nations that failed to enforce traffic laws were always far more dangerous than those that did, and the accident and fatality rates, if they were kept, would show that to be true.

-Excessive speed
-Failure to use signals
-Failure to use headlights.....at night
-Failure to use dedicated lanes....or ANY lanes
-Passing on blind corners, hills
-Failure to yield and / or stop
-Using vehicles unsuitable for road / traffic conditions......(think donkey carts, tractors, mopeds, big trucks etc...)

It is literally like Mad Max out there in a lot of places. Free for all. Total chaos.

While I may not agree with all of our posted speed limits / traffic laws, I understand the need for them, and appreciate the fact that we actually enforce them.

PappaGun wrote:On the 75 exit ramp to Northwest Highway in Dallas, the first sign you see says 35 mph. It's one of those yellow cautionary type signs, not the official Speed Limit type sign. Then, about 50 yards later is an official 45 mph sign.

Just a point of interest here, I did some checking with some LE's I know about those yellow speed limit signs. For a speed limit sign to be a cautionary warning sign, it must be a square sign with the pointy ends at 12, 3, 6, and 9:00. If the sign is the standard rectangular sign just like a white one, it is a legal speed limit sign, not a cautionary warning sign even though it is yellow and you can get a ticket for exceeding it.

Believe me, it irritated me to no end when I learned this. If I am wrong and I don't think I am, please correct me and show me the applicable text in the transportation code.

tomc wrote:

PappaGun wrote:On the 75 exit ramp to Northwest Highway in Dallas, the first sign you see says 35 mph. It's one of those yellow cautionary type signs, not the official Speed Limit type sign. Then, about 50 yards later is an official 45 mph sign.

Just a point of interest here, I did some checking with some LE's I know about those yellow speed limit signs. For a speed limit sign to be a cautionary warning sign, it must be a square sign with the pointy ends at 12, 3, 6, and 9:00. If the sign is the standard rectangular sign just like a white one, it is a legal speed limit sign, not a cautionary warning sign even though it is yellow and you can get a ticket for exceeding it.

Believe me, it irritated me to no end when I learned this. If I am wrong and I don't think I am, please correct me and show me the applicable text in the transportation code.

I thought, in order to be a legal speed limit sign, the sign had to actually say "speed limit". The cautionary signs (advisory?) just had a number on them. (This, however, may have been a California, or some other state's law.)

It would be interesting to make a FOIA request for the statistics about how many of what types of citations are written in my Town. My guess is that the failure to use signals or failure to maintain proper following distance would never appear on that list. That may be a quirk of the system where speeding (because there is a machine which verifies the infraction, not just the word of the LEO) is easier to prosecute. It is probable that the Town purposely does not keep those statistics to avoid such an inquiry. The recent case of the judge sentencing children to detention solely to keep the detention facilities full indicates the need for some oversight in enforcement matters.

My sense is that many local governments, including mine, have been perverted. Our Town has one of the worst reputations for traffic law enforcement in the area. It isn't clear whether that zealous enforcement has had any impact on our traffic accident statistics versus our less vigorously enforced neighbors but the Town's revenue for such matters is much higher than for our neighbors. Such over enforcement is not limited to our police force, however. Last year, I had dealings with our building department and it is equally overzealous in its execution. There is no part of the local codes and ordinances that is not taken to an extreme. The irony is that as code enforcement has become more and more ridiculous (and I heard that from countless tradesmen, many of whom will no longer work in our Town), more and more building work is taking place without any permits or inspections. People would rather take their chances in getting caught after the fact than to deal with the Town and their eccentric demands. Again, it appears to revolve around permit and inspection fees and not in seeing that future owners of a property don't have to deal with substandard construction and repairs.

The point is that there is no check and balance for these behaviors. For traffic enforcement irregularities, one would expect the DPS to have some stake in the matter but there may be no legal basis for an scrutiny, let alone an intervention. For the building code zeal, the Town points to public safety as the basis and that is hard to argue with until you start seeing at the operational level how far from safety the demands really are. There is no one anywhere who could blow the whistle. Graft and corruption could be present and even rampant.

The Town counsel appears to take a completely hands off approach to all of this.

Texas Dan Mosby wrote:

Traffic laws are about money, period.

While I won't argue the fact that revenue generation is the end goal of some traffic laws in many jurisdictions, I WILL argue that traffic laws, and the enforcement of traffic laws, creates a safer environment for citizen drivers.

I have lived and traveled all over the world, and the nations that failed to enforce traffic laws were always far more dangerous than those that did, and the accident and fatality rates, if they were kept, would show that to be true.

I was stationed in Germany, they're pretty strict about traffic laws. I went to Italy, they have the same laws but don't enforce them at all. Yea, Italy was more dangerous for fender-benders, but not for any real safety stuff.

Somewhere, Ukrane maybe, some city took down all traffic signs and lights and speed limits. They didn't have traffic laws to enforce. Drivers didn't just go by signs, they had to look, and traffic got safer. Moved smoother, too.

I saw something kinda like that in Berlin. The big wide streets only had stripes at the intersections. In between, they didn't have any "lanes", people drove where their car fit. And it worked pretty good!

I saw the same thing when i first got to Germany and the TMP van took me to my first duty station. Two lane road, at least that's how it was marked but it was wide enough for four cars. I tried not to scream "were all gonna die!" when the van driver passed a car while another car passed an oncoming car and we met 4 wide going opposite ways. The drivers watched the other cars and I was conditioned to look at the stripes. They were safer drivers than me.

Bullwhip wrote:

Texas Dan Mosby wrote:

Traffic laws are about money, period.

While I won't argue the fact that revenue generation is the end goal of some traffic laws in many jurisdictions, I WILL argue that traffic laws, and the enforcement of traffic laws, creates a safer environment for citizen drivers.

I have lived and traveled all over the world, and the nations that failed to enforce traffic laws were always far more dangerous than those that did, and the accident and fatality rates, if they were kept, would show that to be true.

I was stationed in Germany, they're pretty strict about traffic laws. I went to Italy, they have the same laws but don't enforce them at all. Yea, Italy was more dangerous for fender-benders, but not for any real safety stuff.

Somewhere, Ukrane maybe, some city took down all traffic signs and lights and speed limits. They didn't have traffic laws to enforce. Drivers didn't just go by signs, they had to look, and traffic got safer. Moved smoother, too.

I saw something kinda like that in Berlin. The big wide streets only had stripes at the intersections. In between, they didn't have any "lanes", people drove where their car fit. And it worked pretty good!

I saw the same thing when i first got to Germany and the TMP van took me to my first duty station. Two lane road, at least that's how it was marked but it was wide enough for four cars. I tried not to scream "were all gonna die!" when the van driver passed a car while another car passed an oncoming car and we met 4 wide going opposite ways. The drivers watched the other cars and I was conditioned to look at the stripes. They were safer drivers than me.

In Afghanistan they didn't know what a Drivers LIcense/License Plate was and you better give the right-of-way to any Goats you come across.

http://www.speedtrap.org/

The link above is the home page. Click on Texas and you can then
select the city/town in which you are interested.

SIA

I posted this a while back on a similar topic but I think it's relevant here:

A couple of legislative sessions ago I emailed several legislators asking them to increase the fine for being in the left lane without passing, up to the same as speeding 15 over the speed limit. I am convinced traffic enforcement is based on how much revenue it brings to the local jurisdiction. Not that the average LEO is not concerned about safety but why would a LEO spend the time to pull over and cite someone for something of low pay-back (though more unsafe) like impeding traffic flow or NOT actually passing in the passing lane when they can spend the same time with a bigger pay back like speeding 15 over the limit. My logic is if they made the fines at least the same, the LEO would then have more incentive for not only bring in their precious revenue but actually do something constructive about the traffic jams. I had a few sincere responses but most were just Thank You form letters.

I contend that at the front of every traffic slow down or jam is someone in the passing lane, cruising along, probably on a cell phone, driving at the same or slightly higher or slower speed, than the vehicle in the next lane over. I'm not talking rush hour type traffic, I'm talking normal driving around traffic, 10:00 AM Saturday. It doesn't even have to be on a freeway or interstate highway. It could be just the four lane road you take the store. These are the people that I assume think, "I'll be turning left in about four miles so I better get in the left lane".

So for the people unclear on the concept of "Slower Traffic Keep Right" or the very clear signs saying "Left Lane for Passing Only" here is an easy test:
Regardless of the speed limit or how fast you are actually going, look in front of you. Is there a long gap between you and the next car in front of you? Now look in the mirror. Are there two or more vehicles following close to you? (if it's only one car, they can easily be just a run-of-the-mill idiot) Have you noticed you've been alongside the same vehicle for a couple miles? Or have several people been passing you on the right? (quite possibly showing you the International hand sign of discontent) If the answer to these easy to understand questions is yes, MOVE OVER!!!! It's not your job to regulate traffic speed. That's what we pay the police to do. Remember, it's not speed that causes problems, it's the difference in speed. Anyone that ever drove in Germany can attest to this.

OK,,, I'm off the soapbox.

MegaWatt wrote: ...A couple of legislative sessions ago I emailed several legislators asking them to increase the fine for being in the left lane without passing, up to the same as speeding 15 over the speed limit...

I would rather see them lower the other fines to equalize things.

Tickets are confiscatory these days what with the state surcharges.

I predict that the next thing will be to merge the existing technologies to where our cars enforce traffic laws.

1. Built in GPS knows where the car is and how fast it's going and what the speed limit is.
2. Car sends an email to the local private contractor for "E-Tickets".
3. Ticket arrives in the next day's mail.

Call me old fashioned but I will never own a car with a built in GPS.

TDDude wrote:I predict that the next thing will be to merge the existing technologies to where our cars enforce traffic laws.

1. Built in GPS knows where the car is and how fast it's going and what the speed limit is.
2. Car sends an email to the local private contractor for "E-Tickets".
3. Ticket arrives in the next day's mail.

Call me old fashioned but I will never own a car with a built in GPS.

That's funny.

I've thought the same thing. I can visualize the machine spitting out paper as I drive down the road.
On some particularly bad days the passenger floor board would be full of it.

Though it is possible, no machine is perfect as the red light camera problems illustrate.

My GPS sometimes has speed limits wrong.

Even if there were active speed "notifiers" that communicated with your car, the volume of paperwork and number of challenges would overwhelm the enforcement arm of the department pretty quickly.

But I wouldn't put it past somewhere like New Jersey to try it.

PappaGun wrote:I can visualize the machine spitting out paper as I drive down the road.

Demolition Man?