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Excaliber wrote: Most LEO's in active jurisdictions come to that same conclusion about the same way pretty early on in their careers, often while reflecting on recent events while awaiting treatment in the ER.

I've avoided a goodly number of physical altercations over the years by letting the arrestee to be know that, while this might be sport for him, I was doing this for a living and I didn't fight fair. I was upfront about the fact that I'd use whatever tactics and weapons I had to and as many of my fellow officers as I needed to get the job done, and in the end it was an absolute certainty that he was going to jail anyway. The only variables were how much or how little it would hurt, whether the trip to jail would or would not involve a detour to the emergency room, and whether or not he'd have several more years added to his upcoming prison time as a result.

Some still had enough brain cells left to think that through and come to a reasonable conclusion.

The others learned the hard way that I wasn't kidding and the decision they made wasn't a good one. While the experience didn't get them what they wanted, it did help to educate their friends.

My typical speech was "You might beat me, but you won't beat US." They usually saw the wisdom in those words. Of course, there are always those who have to see for themselves....one in particular spent almost two weeks in ICU before his eventual 45 to life in Angola.

...Angola...we're back in the last century again...

speedsix wrote:...you can't teach people how to make that split second do or don't call...you give 'em all the facts and they either have what it takes to do that or not...being a street cop helps, but I've seen sergeants and lieutenants who didn't have what it took to deal with those situations...we were happy if they stayed away...most folks don't process that quickly...it's good that most don't have to...there's nothing fun or heroic about it...it's just doing what has to be done...and hopefully doing it right...

Here's another way to look at it:

Those who consistently make the right calls (like most line officers, especially in active jurisdictions) have in fact been taught how to do it right by a combination of training and experience (the latter of which is usually defined as what you get when you don't get what you want).

The same learning can potentially be accomplished by anyone, and being a SGT, LT, or sheltered housewife doesn't diminish that ability, although those roles may well diminish the regular exposure to the training and experience that are the underpinnings of quick situation assessment and good judgment in choosing a response. The process that raw recruits go through starting as rank newbies who have to be protected by the FTO's until they get a basic hang of things and grow intoseasoned street officers who can handle almost anything and do it well is reasonably good evidence that this works.

Kythas wrote:

Excaliber wrote: Most LEO's in active jurisdictions come to that same conclusion about the same way pretty early on in their careers, often while reflecting on recent events while awaiting treatment in the ER.

I've avoided a goodly number of physical altercations over the years by letting the arrestee to be know that, while this might be sport for him, I was doing this for a living and I didn't fight fair. I was upfront about the fact that I'd use whatever tactics and weapons I had to and as many of my fellow officers as I needed to get the job done, and in the end it was an absolute certainty that he was going to jail anyway. The only variables were how much or how little it would hurt, whether the trip to jail would or would not involve a detour to the emergency room, and whether or not he'd have several more years added to his upcoming prison time as a result.

Some still had enough brain cells left to think that through and come to a reasonable conclusion.

The others learned the hard way that I wasn't kidding and the decision they made wasn't a good one. While the experience didn't get them what they wanted, it did help to educate their friends.

My typical speech was "You might beat me, but you won't beat US." They usually saw the wisdom in those words. Of course, there are always those who have to see for themselves....one in particular spent almost two weeks in ICU before his eventual 45 to life in Angola.

Among the BG's, just like anywhere else, there are quick learners, slow learners, and no learners.

We need to be prepared to successfully manage them all.

Excaliber wrote:

speedsix wrote:...you can't teach people how to make that split second do or don't call...you give 'em all the facts and they either have what it takes to do that or not...being a street cop helps, but I've seen sergeants and lieutenants who didn't have what it took to deal with those situations...we were happy if they stayed away...most folks don't process that quickly...it's good that most don't have to...there's nothing fun or heroic about it...it's just doing what has to be done...and hopefully doing it right...

Here's another way to look at it:

Those who consistently make the right calls (like most line officers, especially in active jurisdictions) have in fact been taught how to do it right by a combination of training and experience (the latter of which is usually defined as what you get when you don't get what you want).

The same learning can potentially be accomplished by anyone, and being a SGT, LT, or sheltered housewife doesn't diminish that ability, although those roles may well diminish the regular exposure to the training and experience that are the underpinnings of quick situation assessment and good judgment in choosing a response. The process that raw recruits go through starting as rank newbies who have to be protected by the FTO's until they get a basic hang of things and grow intoseasoned street officers who can handle almost anything and do it well is reasonably good evidence that this works.

...true...you can teach principles and rules...but what it takes to grasp a situation and make the right call, not so much...that takes time and street experience...most don't get that...

I did a travelling nurse assignment in San Jose California in the late 80s. I worked at Santa Clara Valley Medical Center in their Level I Trauma Center. It is one of the "Gun and Knife Clubs". There was a huge PCP (Angel Dust) problem at that time. Any of our LEOs that have dealt with someone on PCP know that "Captain's announcements" don't work with these guys. Not only are they not scared of anything you can throw at them, they can't feel it either. When we got a call an officer was bringing in someone on PCP, we would meet them outside. We would have four of us, and a gurney equipped with five point leather restraints. We were not allowed to get the guy out of the car until a second officer arrived. They never came peacefully, even if pretty severely whooped on.

The officers, at that time, were taught one method of dealing with these guys that did not want to come along. It was obvious that pepper spray did not help, and they did not want to have to shoot them. They were taught to take their PR-24 and whack them in the lower leg as hard as they could. This effectively broke not only the tibia, but the fibula as well. They might still fight, but they could not run.

We had one fellow, really tall, maybe 6 foot and 10 inches, that was strapped down to a gurney. He did not have to get the broken leg method of arrest. The two officers were sitting at the desk and filling out paperwork. This guy shows up at the door of the room, broken leather straps hanging from his wrists, and tells the two cops, "I am leaving now". They said, "See you later", and let him walk. That is not a second hand story, I was there, I saw it, and it is true. I wonder to this day why they did not engage him, but it was probably the better part of wisdom and valor that told them it was not a battle worth fighting.

One more reason I am glad I do not have to do their job. I will help clean up after they do it, but don't want to have that kind of stress in my life.

RJ

johnson0317 wrote:The two officers were sitting at the desk and filling out paperwork. This guy shows up at the door of the room, broken leather straps hanging from his wrists, and tells the two cops, "I am leaving now". They said, "See you later", and let him walk. That is not a second hand story, I was there, I saw it, and it is true. I wonder to this day why they did not engage him, but it was probably the better part of wisdom and valor that told them it was not a battle worth fighting.

As with the bad guys mentioned above, there are quick learners, slow learners, and no learners among the cops. These two were definitely not int he no learner category and probably not int he slow learner group either. If I had a formerly tied down suspect show up with the leather straps broken and dangling from his wrists and ankles still, I would probably let him leave also unless there were a lot more than just two of us there to stop him.

speedsix wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

speedsix wrote:...you can't teach people how to make that split second do or don't call...you give 'em all the facts and they either have what it takes to do that or not...being a street cop helps, but I've seen sergeants and lieutenants who didn't have what it took to deal with those situations...we were happy if they stayed away...most folks don't process that quickly...it's good that most don't have to...there's nothing fun or heroic about it...it's just doing what has to be done...and hopefully doing it right...

Here's another way to look at it:

Those who consistently make the right calls (like most line officers, especially in active jurisdictions) have in fact been taught how to do it right by a combination of training and experience (the latter of which is usually defined as what you get when you don't get what you want).

The same learning can potentially be accomplished by anyone, and being a SGT, LT, or sheltered housewife doesn't diminish that ability, although those roles may well diminish the regular exposure to the training and experience that are the underpinnings of quick situation assessment and good judgment in choosing a response. The process that raw recruits go through starting as rank newbies who have to be protected by the FTO's until they get a basic hang of things and grow intoseasoned street officers who can handle almost anything and do it well is reasonably good evidence that this works.

...true...you can teach principles and rules...but what it takes to grasp a situation and make the right call, not so much...that takes time and street experience...most don't get that...

Very true.

But when somebody grasps the principles and rules and has gotten the hang of applying them to the realities of the street, he's got one potent combination.

srothstein wrote:

johnson0317 wrote:The two officers were sitting at the desk and filling out paperwork. This guy shows up at the door of the room, broken leather straps hanging from his wrists, and tells the two cops, "I am leaving now". They said, "See you later", and let him walk. That is not a second hand story, I was there, I saw it, and it is true. I wonder to this day why they did not engage him, but it was probably the better part of wisdom and valor that told them it was not a battle worth fighting.

As with the bad guys mentioned above, there are quick learners, slow learners, and no learners among the cops. These two were definitely not int he no learner category and probably not int he slow learner group either. If I had a formerly tied down suspect show up with the leather straps broken and dangling from his wrists and ankles still, I would probably let him leave also unless there were a lot more than just two of us there to stop him.

Challenging such an individual at that point with only two officers, regardless of how competent, would violate my earlier stated principle that work decisions should be made in a way that allows the officer to go home from a shift in about the same shape he was in when he started.

Excaliber wrote:

srothstein wrote:

johnson0317 wrote: ... "I am leaving now". They said, "See you later", and let him walk...

.

Challenging such an individual at that point with only two officers, regardless of how competent, would violate my earlier stated principle that work decisions should be made in a way that allows the officer to go home from a shift in about the same shape he was in when he started.

Which is an excellent example of why any reasonably law-abiding citizen should be able to be armed anywhere, anytime, and pretty much with whatever he thinks he needs.

I understand there are practical limits to what a police officer, or two, or four, or whatever, can accomplish legally and effectively, and still go home at the end of the shift. But frankly it is more important that reasonably law-abiding citizens can go home at the end of the officer's shift too. Anybody who happened to be in the path of a giant PCP-crazed zombie and attracted his unhappy attention would be in for a rough time.

I assume these two officers got on the phone/radio pronto and got reinforcements to go mob this guy before he hurt anybody, but there of course was no guarantee that would happen before he ran into some unsuspecting Joe Baggadonuts walking down the street.

ELB wrote:I understand there are practical limits to what a police officer, or two, or four, or whatever, can accomplish legally and effectively, and still go home at the end of the shift. But frankly it is more important that reasonably law-abiding citizens can go home at the end of the officer's shift too. Anybody who happened to be in the path of a giant PCP-crazed zombie and attracted his unhappy attention would be in for a rough time.

I assume these two officers got on the phone/radio pronto and got reinforcements to go mob this guy before he hurt anybody, but there of course was no guarantee that would happen before he ran into some unsuspecting Joe Baggadonuts walking down the street.

This is about 22 years later at this point. I remember the incident vividly, but I do not remember the aftermath. I also assume they called for some backup, but I can not, for the life of me, remember that part of it. I do know that he was not brought back into the ER that night.

Let me give you an idea of what these guys on PCP can do. We had one brought in with the tib/fib fracture from a PR-24. It was an open fracture. An open fracture means that the skin is split open at the fracture site. In this instance, it was split open and bone was poking out. When he was leathered to the gurney, some nitwit (not me) did not think he needed to have that leg strapped down. An orthopedic surgeon came in to look at the leg. I don't remember what the prisoner said, but one of our techs, standing at his head, leaned over and whispered something in his ear. I am sure it was not terms of endearment. The prisoner proceeded to take his bone-hanging out broken leg and smack me up side of the head with it. It caught me by surprise, to say the least, and I instinctively threw my right arm over it and twisted down. It is the one and only time I heard one of these guys scream out in pain. I could also hear the bones grinding on each other, which is one of my least favorite sounds. I looked at myself, and I was covered in this dude's blood. I sheepishly looked up at the surgeon whose job I had just made harder. I figured I was going to get a good chewing out. He only shook his head and said, "He had it coming".

I did four, three month contracts at this ER. In that 12 month period of time, I was attacked five times. Great times!

RJ

ELB wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

srothstein wrote:

johnson0317 wrote: ... "I am leaving now". They said, "See you later", and let him walk...

.

Challenging such an individual at that point with only two officers, regardless of how competent, would violate my earlier stated principle that work decisions should be made in a way that allows the officer to go home from a shift in about the same shape he was in when he started.

Which is an excellent example of why any reasonably law-abiding citizen should be able to be armed anywhere, anytime, and pretty much with whatever he thinks he needs.

I understand there are practical limits to what a police officer, or two, or four, or whatever, can accomplish legally and effectively, and still go home at the end of the shift. But frankly it is more important that reasonably law-abiding citizens can go home at the end of the officer's shift too. Anybody who happened to be in the path of a giant PCP-crazed zombie and attracted his unhappy attention would be in for a rough time.

I assume these two officers got on the phone/radio pronto and got reinforcements to go mob this guy before he hurt anybody, but there of course was no guarantee that would happen before he ran into some unsuspecting Joe Baggadonuts walking down the street.

I'm certain the two officers didn't just let him walk, but they did make a valid tactical decision to confront him at a slightly later time on their terms and with enough resources to minimize the risk of serious injury to themselves and the patient.

No one gains when someone initiates a confrontation that is virtually certain to require deadly force in a situation where playing things out just long enough to arrange for a better time, place, and circumstances would allow lesser force to be used to successfully resolve the matter.