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Re: Open Door at my house
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:33 pm
by Excaliber
speedsix wrote:Excaliber wrote:speedsix wrote:...nobody knows his house like he does...if he so chooses, there's no reason he shouldn't clear his own home...it's his right...it's his choice...police are NOT for clearing houses...or protecting us...they're for enforcing the law...the British have taken the mindset that citizens can't protect themselves or their property...look where it got them...
...it may not be YOUR choice...I respect that...but it's not WRONG for him to have chosen to...just different from you....my experiences with police responses to residence burglary or open doors have been less than satisfactory...I KNOW some of us could/would do a better job...someone else's home???? depends...
Excaliber wrote:While it's not "wrong" to clear one's own house after finding an open door (it's your place after all), it is an extremely risky undertaking. If there are one or more intruders inside, the searcher is at an extreme tactical disadvantage and can be easily ambushed and taken out - permanently.
After some bad experiences, my agency's procedure for house clearing was two officers outside on diagonally opposite corners, and a minimum of two for the inside search unless there were exigent circumstances - gunshots, screams, etc. where immediate entry was needed to save lives.
I've cleared way more houses than I could count. I've seen bad guys be really creative in how and where they concealed themselves, and some really unpleasant things they did to people who entered while they were there.
If I were to come home to an open door, my tactic would be to back off, take up an unobtrusive observation position, and call for the guys my taxes are paying for to do what they are paid to do.
That's just my decision based on my experiences. Others may make other choices, or find themselves in circumstances where thinly spread law enforcement officers are tied up on other calls and are not available when needed.
There is no one solution that fits all cases, but I think minimizing unnecessary risk should be a consideration in any well thought out plan.
...
...sounds like your people were well-staffed...I've had to clear dozens of businesses and residences...arrested and cuffed up to 4 burglars...with no help at all...I've never had two show up since I've been in Texas...and had three refuse to go in because "it didn't look like anyone'd been inside...one with a broken window...well, that one was about 10 years ago...maybe the bad experiences have improved things...
Our sworn complement was over 200. We had lots more folks available than many small agencies, and used special units (detectives, street crime, traffic, etc.) when needed to put enough troops on scene. When we had to compromise, we cut the perimeter coverage rather than the entry team. We figured it was better to let someone get away rather than chance losing one of our own.
I know not every agency can do this, and, despite the high risks, it's not unusual for an officer to have to clear a house alone. However, my point is that it is unnecessary for most homeowners to clear a house alone, and IMHO it's just not a good idea to take those risks when you don't have to.
Re: Open Door at my house
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:48 pm
by magillapd
I agree for the most part about having the police clear the house. Like I said in my post, there was no signs at all of any forced entry, the door was shut for the most part, but it didn't latch, so when I touched the handle it pushed open. I paused for a second and determined that they door most likely didn't latch.
had there been signs of forced entry, I'd have gladly called the police and have them clear the house.
Re: Open Door at my house
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:54 pm
by speedsix
Excaliber wrote:speedsix wrote:Excaliber wrote:speedsix wrote:...nobody knows his house like he does...if he so chooses, there's no reason he shouldn't clear his own home...it's his right...it's his choice...police are NOT for clearing houses...or protecting us...they're for enforcing the law...the British have taken the mindset that citizens can't protect themselves or their property...look where it got them...
...it may not be YOUR choice...I respect that...but it's not WRONG for him to have chosen to...just different from you....my experiences with police responses to residence burglary or open doors have been less than satisfactory...I KNOW some of us could/would do a better job...someone else's home???? depends...
Excaliber wrote:While it's not "wrong" to clear one's own house after finding an open door (it's your place after all), it is an extremely risky undertaking. If there are one or more intruders inside, the searcher is at an extreme tactical disadvantage and can be easily ambushed and taken out - permanently.
After some bad experiences, my agency's procedure for house clearing was two officers outside on diagonally opposite corners, and a minimum of two for the inside search unless there were exigent circumstances - gunshots, screams, etc. where immediate entry was needed to save lives.
I've cleared way more houses than I could count. I've seen bad guys be really creative in how and where they concealed themselves, and some really unpleasant things they did to people who entered while they were there.
If I were to come home to an open door, my tactic would be to back off, take up an unobtrusive observation position, and call for the guys my taxes are paying for to do what they are paid to do.
That's just my decision based on my experiences. Others may make other choices, or find themselves in circumstances where thinly spread law enforcement officers are tied up on other calls and are not available when needed.
There is no one solution that fits all cases, but I think minimizing unnecessary risk should be a consideration in any well thought out plan.
...
...sounds like your people were well-staffed...I've had to clear dozens of businesses and residences...arrested and cuffed up to 4 burglars...with no help at all...I've never had two show up since I've been in Texas...and had three refuse to go in because "it didn't look like anyone'd been inside...one with a broken window...well, that one was about 10 years ago...maybe the bad experiences have improved things...
Our sworn complement was over 200. We had lots more folks available than many small agencies, and used special units (detectives, street crime, traffic, etc.) when needed to put enough troops on scene. When we had to compromise, we cut the perimeter coverage rather than the entry team. We figured it was better to let someone get away rather than chance losing one of our own.
I know not every agency can do this, and, despite the high risks, it's not unusual for an officer to have to clear a house alone. However, my point is that it is unnecessary for most homeowners to clear a house alone, and IMHO it's just not a good idea to take those risks when you don't have to.
...you had some good heads at city hall to give you plenty of help...often we had 10-12 officers covering the city of 225,000 at night...including supv....if you can call that covering...times have surely changed!!!
Re: Open Door at my house
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:09 pm
by Excaliber
speedsix wrote:Excaliber wrote:speedsix wrote:Excaliber wrote:speedsix wrote:...nobody knows his house like he does...if he so chooses, there's no reason he shouldn't clear his own home...it's his right...it's his choice...police are NOT for clearing houses...or protecting us...they're for enforcing the law...the British have taken the mindset that citizens can't protect themselves or their property...look where it got them...
...it may not be YOUR choice...I respect that...but it's not WRONG for him to have chosen to...just different from you....my experiences with police responses to residence burglary or open doors have been less than satisfactory...I KNOW some of us could/would do a better job...someone else's home???? depends...
Excaliber wrote:While it's not "wrong" to clear one's own house after finding an open door (it's your place after all), it is an extremely risky undertaking. If there are one or more intruders inside, the searcher is at an extreme tactical disadvantage and can be easily ambushed and taken out - permanently.
After some bad experiences, my agency's procedure for house clearing was two officers outside on diagonally opposite corners, and a minimum of two for the inside search unless there were exigent circumstances - gunshots, screams, etc. where immediate entry was needed to save lives.
I've cleared way more houses than I could count. I've seen bad guys be really creative in how and where they concealed themselves, and some really unpleasant things they did to people who entered while they were there.
If I were to come home to an open door, my tactic would be to back off, take up an unobtrusive observation position, and call for the guys my taxes are paying for to do what they are paid to do.
That's just my decision based on my experiences. Others may make other choices, or find themselves in circumstances where thinly spread law enforcement officers are tied up on other calls and are not available when needed.
There is no one solution that fits all cases, but I think minimizing unnecessary risk should be a consideration in any well thought out plan.
...
...sounds like your people were well-staffed...I've had to clear dozens of businesses and residences...arrested and cuffed up to 4 burglars...with no help at all...I've never had two show up since I've been in Texas...and had three refuse to go in because "it didn't look like anyone'd been inside...one with a broken window...well, that one was about 10 years ago...maybe the bad experiences have improved things...
Our sworn complement was over 200. We had lots more folks available than many small agencies, and used special units (detectives, street crime, traffic, etc.) when needed to put enough troops on scene. When we had to compromise, we cut the perimeter coverage rather than the entry team. We figured it was better to let someone get away rather than chance losing one of our own.
I know not every agency can do this, and, despite the high risks, it's not unusual for an officer to have to clear a house alone. However, my point is that it is unnecessary for most homeowners to clear a house alone, and IMHO it's just not a good idea to take those risks when you don't have to.
...you had some good heads at city hall to give you plenty of help...often we had 10-12 officers covering the city of 225,000 at night...including supv....if you can call that covering...times have surely changed!!!
We had an unusual situation in that our nighttime population was about 50,000 and daytime was near 300,000. We had to staff for the daytime peak, and most of the department worked somewhere between 6 AM and 9PM. During those hours we could make it rain cops when we needed to.
Overnight street staffing was around 9 - 14 counting supervisors. A few major calls going down at the same time then would pretty much max out the resources.