P51 crash in Reno, pilot a hero.

[92f-fan]

one more piece of info is that just prior to this race they cut 5 feet off the end of each wind to decrease drag and increase speed

In a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June, Leeward said major changes were made to the plane before this year's race. He said his crew cut five feet off each wing and shortened the ailerons - the back edge of the main wings used to control balance - to 32 inches, down from about 60 inches.

The goal was to make the plane more aerodynamic so it goes faster without a bigger engine.

"I know the speed. I know it'll do the speed. The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK," he said.

[tommyg]

The loss of a trim tab at low altitude and high speed is something
that you won't have time to recover from no matter what your
age physical condition expierence ar anything else. A good
pre flight inspection would have saved the day before take off.

[philip964]

Chuck Yeager did not like flying his P 51 anywhere near the ground. He always liked the safety that altitude gave him.

[Purplehood]

As I understand it, the P-51 had been heavily modified in the past year in preparation for this race (I recall something about dimensions of wings being reduced or something along those lines). Some folks considered it risky, and the pilot considered it a worthwhile gamble.
I too would be interested to see what the NTSB has to say about this issue.

[Dragonfighter]

As I understand it, the P-51 had been heavily modified in the past year in preparation for this race (I recall something about dimensions of wings being reduced or something along those lines). Some folks considered it risky, and the pilot considered it a worthwhile gamble.
I too would be interested to see what the NTSB has to say about this issue.

Bobbing the wings is quite common. Dago Red that used to house at Addison had 4' off each wing and the vertical stab cut down as well. The mustang is well suited to these types of mods because of the laminar flow wings. Changing the chord (tip) does not appreciably effect airflow and control effectiveness is maintained. BUT the stability is effected as in any high performance aircraft. The fact is the modern fighter is so unstable a human cannot fly one without computer augmentation.

Now the tendency of the Mustang to pitch up is well documented. "Climbs like a homesick angel," my instructor used to say. When you look at the flight manual it calls for "three" down on the trim wheel before takeoff, this prevents a tail stand. Any plane you fly requires more downward trim to maintain attitude as your airspeed increases. So if you exaggerate a Mustang's pitch up tendency by modding it to fly 100 mph faster than its original top speed and you suddenly lose your trim tab, she ought to depart in a hurry.

Now a sudden 20G swing, 10+ to 10- will GLOC the best, brightest and youngest. Ask Kevin Davis who died in the Beaufort Blue Angels crash. Analysis surmised that during the infield turn he was out of place and had to pull harder to return to position. He exceeded 10 G's and ostensibly blacked out crashing into the ground.

R.A. "Bob" Hoover was doing an incredible aerobatic routine in a twin engine Shrike Commander. He would get to altitude shut off both engines and using a technique called energy management would roll, loop, hammerhead and spin all the way down and land dead stick. He was the only one who has ever done that routine. Oh yeah, he was 85 when he quit flying the shows.

[Purplehood]

As I understand it, the P-51 had been heavily modified in the past year in preparation for this race (I recall something about dimensions of wings being reduced or something along those lines). Some folks considered it risky, and the pilot considered it a worthwhile gamble.
I too would be interested to see what the NTSB has to say about this issue.

Bobbing the wings is quite common. Dago Red that used to house at Addison had 4' off each wing and the vertical stab cut down as well. The mustang is well suited to these types of mods because of the laminar flow wings. Changing the chord (tip) does not appreciably effect airflow and control effectiveness is maintained. BUT the stability is effected as in any high performance aircraft. The fact is the modern fighter is so unstable a human cannot fly one without computer augmentation.

Now the tendency of the Mustang to pitch up is well documented. "Climbs like a homesick angel," my instructor used to say. When you look at the flight manual it calls for "three" down on the trim wheel before takeoff, this prevents a tail stand. Any plane you fly requires more downward trim to maintain attitude as your airspeed increases. So if you exaggerate a Mustang's pitch up tendency by modding it to fly 100 mph faster than its original top speed and you suddenly lose your trim tab, she ought to depart in a hurry.

Now a sudden 20G swing, 10+ to 10- will GLOC the best, brightest and youngest. Ask Kevin Davis who died in the Beaufort Blue Angels crash. Analysis surmised that during the infield turn he was out of place and had to pull harder to return to position. He exceeded 10 G's and ostensibly blacked out crashing into the ground.

R.A. "Bob" Hoover was doing an incredible aerobatic routine in a twin engine Shrike Commander. He would get to altitude shut off both engines and using a technique called energy management would roll, loop, hammerhead and spin all the way down and land dead stick. He was the only one who has ever done that routine. Oh yeah, he was 85 when he quit flying the shows.

I got the impression that whatever mods had been done were considered more of an experimental nature by the folks that have to review and approve such changes.

[Dragonfighter]

I got the impression that whatever mods had been done were considered more of an experimental nature by the folks that have to review and approve such changes.

Correct. Anytime you want to substantially modify an airframe you have to have it reclassified as "experimental". Homebuilts, self maintained and warbird restorations fall into this classification as well.

An FAA type airworthiness inspector has to review the modifications, then inspect and where appropriate test the plane (I doubt this was feasible in a Mustang but is common in homebuilts). They then sign off on the plane's airworthiness or it doesn't fly.

That said, modding aircraft for aerobatics (I.E. Art Scholl's Super Chipmunk) or for extreme speeds (Rare Bear, Dago Red, etc.) is common. This race was Unlimited Class which means anything heavier than 4500 lbs goes.

[Keith B]

So if you exaggerate a Mustang's pitch up tendency by modding it to fly 100 mph faster than its original top speed and you suddenly lose your trim tab, she ought to depart in a hurry.

Now a sudden 20G swing, 10+ to 10- will GLOC the best, brightest and youngest. Ask Kevin Davis who died in the Beaufort Blue Angels crash. Analysis surmised that during the infield turn he was out of place and had to pull harder to return to position. He exceeded 10 G's and ostensibly blacked out crashing into the ground.

R.A. "Bob" Hoover was doing an incredible aerobatic routine in a twin engine Shrike Commander. He would get to altitude shut off both engines and using a technique called energy management would roll, loop, hammerhead and spin all the way down and land dead stick. He was the only one who has ever done that routine. Oh yeah, he was 85 when he quit flying the shows.

I was talking with a retired Air Force Col. Saturday night at our Balloon festival after party. He was primarily an F-4 pilot, but has flown just about every high performance prop plane out there, including the P-51. Still flying a T-28 regularly doing aerobatics. We both were saying the same thing about GLOC'ing after the trim tab was gone and he went into the steep ascent. I have seen a couple of photos where you can't see the pilot in the cockpit which makes me think he was slumped while pulling 10+ and basically ends up pulling an Immelmann back into the ground.

Prayers for all the folks impacted by the accident.

[Rex B]

from the Warbirds forum:

"I do have a theory as to why we are seeing several P-51s losing trim tabs - momentary supersonic airflows over the tail surface. At 500 or so MPH, if a pilot makes an abrupt elevator movement, it is potentially possible to get a local increase in airflow over control surface which could exceed the speed of sound - this will cause shock waves and stresses for which the trim tab component (as well as the whole aircraft) were not designed to withstand.

If this turns out to indeed be the case, it will be interesting to see how the FAA responds. Basically, it could be the unlimited racers are operating so close to the sound barrier with the latest technology and modifications to P-51s that they are encountering momentary airflows and shock waves that the airframes were just simply not designed to support. "

[Dragonfighter]

from the Warbirds forum:

"I do have a theory as to why we are seeing several P-51s losing trim tabs - momentary supersonic airflows over the tail surface. At 500 or so MPH, if a pilot makes an abrupt elevator movement, it is potentially possible to get a local increase in airflow over control surface which could exceed the speed of sound - this will cause shock waves and stresses for which the trim tab component (as well as the whole aircraft) were not designed to withstand.

If this turns out to indeed be the case, it will be interesting to see how the FAA responds. Basically, it could be the unlimited racers are operating so close to the sound barrier with the latest technology and modifications to P-51s that they are encountering momentary airflows and shock waves that the airframes were just simply not designed to support. "

The air frames were not designed to handle something thought impossible until 1947. Though 500 mph is not close to the speed of sound, supersonic flows are extremely possible. The growl you here on warbirds' props as they streak past is the propeller tips going supersonic like 3000 bull whip cracks per minute.

I think the warbirds guys have something.

[Keith B]

from the Warbirds forum:

"I do have a theory as to why we are seeing several P-51s losing trim tabs - momentary supersonic airflows over the tail surface. At 500 or so MPH, if a pilot makes an abrupt elevator movement, it is potentially possible to get a local increase in airflow over control surface which could exceed the speed of sound - this will cause shock waves and stresses for which the trim tab component (as well as the whole aircraft) were not designed to withstand.

If this turns out to indeed be the case, it will be interesting to see how the FAA responds. Basically, it could be the unlimited racers are operating so close to the sound barrier with the latest technology and modifications to P-51s that they are encountering momentary airflows and shock waves that the airframes were just simply not designed to support. "

The air frames were not designed to handle something thought impossible until 1947. Though 500 mph is not close to the speed of sound, supersonic flows are extremely possible. The growl you here on warbirds' props as they streak past is the propeller tips going supersonic like 3000 bull whip cracks per minute.

I think the warbirds guys have something.

and doubt I will have that issue of getting close to supersonic in my balloon (at least I HOPE not!)

[The Annoyed Man]

As I understand it, the P-51 had been heavily modified in the past year in preparation for this race (I recall something about dimensions of wings being reduced or something along those lines). Some folks considered it risky, and the pilot considered it a worthwhile gamble.
I too would be interested to see what the NTSB has to say about this issue.

I wonder if the pilot could come back to life today, is "it was a worthwhile gamble" the excuse he would give the families of the 10 people his airplane killed when he lost control of it secondary to a modification known to be risky?

I've never attended the Reno Air Races, although I have wanted to do so for years. Apparently, the last time they had a fatal crash there, the cause of that crash was also traced to bobbed wings. I won't be going any time soon. Too bad. Right now, as it stands with the sanctioning body permitting alterations that are known to make an aircraft less airworthy, the Reno Race is at the same status as Le Mans or Indianapolis in the 1950s when crashing race cars or the wheels and other parts of the same often flew into the stands and took out spectators.

I really like the old warbirds, and the P-51 is probably my all-time favorite aircraft. There just aren't enough of them left. It's a darn shame that this guy's modifications took out another one, let alone that he killed himself and 10 other people. People say he was a hero because he appeared to try and get the plane away from the crowd before auguring in. I won't give him that honorific. Call me mean spirited, but his decision to modify his aircraft led to the deaths of others. If he wanted to make those mods and then go splatter himself out in the desert somewhere where he couldn't hurt anybody else, that would be OK. But you don't keep your sport alive by killing the people who come to see it.

[Oldgringo]

As I understand it, the P-51 had been heavily modified in the past year in preparation for this race (I recall something about dimensions of wings being reduced or something along those lines). Some folks considered it risky, and the pilot considered it a worthwhile gamble.
I too would be interested to see what the NTSB has to say about this issue.

I wonder if the pilot could come back to life today, is "it was a worthwhile gamble" the excuse he would give the families of the 10 people his airplane killed when he lost control of it secondary to a modification known to be risky?

I've never attended the Reno Air Races, although I have wanted to do so for years. Apparently, the last time they had a fatal crash there, the cause of that crash was also traced to bobbed wings. I won't be going any time soon. Too bad. Right now, as it stands with the sanctioning body permitting alterations that are known to make an aircraft less airworthy, the Reno Race is at the same status as Le Mans or Indianapolis in the 1950s when crashing race cars or the wheels and other parts of the same often flew into the stands and took out spectators.

I really like the old warbirds, and the P-51 is probably my all-time favorite aircraft. There just aren't enough of them left. It's a darn shame that this guy's modifications took out another one, let alone that he killed himself and 10 other people. People say he was a hero because he appeared to try and get the plane away from the crowd before auguring in. I won't give him that honorific. Call me mean spirited, but his decision to modify his aircraft led to the deaths of others. If he wanted to make those mods and then go splatter himself out in the desert somewhere where he couldn't hurt anybody else, that would be OK. But you don't keep your sport alive by killing the people who come to see it.

Those are hard sayins', TAM but they needed to be said, IMO. Good Job!

[Rex B]

I wonder if the pilot could come back to life today, is "it was a worthwhile gamble" the excuse he would give the families of the 10 people his airplane killed when he lost control of it secondary to a modification known to be risky?

How so? The failed part appears to be a trim tab. I saw nothing to indicate it was modified from stock.

I think the people in those box seats were avid fans of the sport, and knew these racers were as modified as they could be.
There is a risk to proximity to that kind of power, and that's what they were there for.
Just like those people crowding the rail at LeMans in 1955 when the Mercedes left the track.
Was it an acceptable risk?

Friday, those people thought it was. Nothing like this had happened in decades of events.
Today is Monday, and it's easy for us to say it wasn't worth the risk.

[The Annoyed Man]

I wonder if the pilot could come back to life today, is "it was a worthwhile gamble" the excuse he would give the families of the 10 people his airplane killed when he lost control of it secondary to a modification known to be risky?

How so? The failed part appears to be a trim tab. I saw nothing to indicate it was modified from stock.

I think the people in those box seats were avid fans of the sport, and knew these racers were as modified as they could be.
There is a risk to proximity to that kind of power, and that's what they were there for.
Just like those people crowding the rail at LeMans in 1955 when the Mercedes left the track.
Was it an acceptable risk?

Friday, those people thought it was. Nothing like this had happened in decades of events.
Today is Monday, and it's easy for us to say it wasn't worth the risk.

Rex, I saw a news report this afternoon that said that he had made his trim tabs smaller also, along with the rest of the wings, and that his horizontal stabilizers at the rear had been similarly modified.

Apparently, I hit a nerve with my above post because I've already gotten one PM in response to it. His response was similar to yours. I'll leave his name out of it, but I'll reproduce my answer to him here. We can certainly be free to disagree, but at least you'll know where I am coming from:

Hi Jim,

I used to road race superbikes—open class motorcycles that were doing straightaways at over 160 mph, and corners at anywhere between 100 mph and 140 mph. I get the adrenaline junky part and I get why people go to races. But never would I have dreamed of removing the brake calipers to make the bike more streamlined. The brake calipers are a "control surface," if you will. This guy chopped down his trim tabs in addition to shortening his wings. His wings were thus, not only shorter end to end, but also shorter from leading edge to trailing edge. So, not only did he lose lift and control, but he gained speed and lost control. You make up for the loss of lift by gaining speed. But what makes up for the loss of control? Nothing, not even pilot skill. Like I said, it was supremely irresponsible and selfish.

BTW, I also get the selfish part. Racers generally speaking put everything second to the ambition of winning. If your modifications to gain speed result in nothing more than a loss of lift, that's not a big deal. In the motorcycle world, that would be the equivalent of reducing cornering prowess to gain straight-line acceleration. But when you take away from your ability to steer the aircraft and keep it stable and trimmed up in exchange for speed, you start putting not just your own life at risk, but also the lives of the crowd and the other pilots. That's not really a right that the pilot has.

One of my other functions during my racing career was that I also ran the tech inspection station for the club for 3 or 4 years. It was my job to make sure that all race-bikes had passed inspection and had been given an inspection sticker to certify passage before being allowed out on the track. We kept a detailed log of every bike that came through. If a bike was missing required safety wiring or the owner/mechanic had taken shortcuts that made the bike faster at the expense of the safety rules, they were denied an inspection sticker and sent back to their pits to make the necessary corrections. Without that sticker, there was no getting onto the track. In one national level 24 hour endurance race that our club hosted, I sent two of the pre-race favorites back to their pits for corrections before the race. They complained bitterly; and one of them was the editor of Cycle World Magazine at the time, and he viciously attacked us in the press in the next issue, calling me an my crew "tech-nazis" in a national publication. I didn't care. Our club hosted the race and provided all the track crew, and his club was the sanctioning body. We were using HIS rulebook, that he helped write. He though he should get a pass because "I'm a national caliber rider and I know what I'm doing." I was right. He was wrong. I made the race safer. If he had his way, he would have made it more dangerous. End of story. So I can live just fine with being called a tech-nazi, and I sleep well at night.

So, as much as I would have loved the thrill of going to the Reno Air races, it ain't gonna happen. That's because the promoters deliberately permit practices which make for unsafe racing. It is stupid. Do people get excited by the possibility of witnessing mayhem? Sadly, yes. But none of those 10 people expected when they got there that day that their seat in that section of the stands would result in their being killed. If they had forwarning, there isn't one of them who would have chosen to either sit somewhere else, or stay home that day.

I really do believe that the pilot was a jerk. I'm sorry he's dead. But I am sorrier that his stupidity killed 10 other people. Anyway, that's how I feel about these things.