Protecting a 3rd person - scenario

[Odin]

Why do any of us carry then?

Self defense.

If you're worried about getting involved, why carry?

Irrelevant. I don't carry a gun to "get involved", I carry a gun for self defense. If I choose to expand my role beyond self defense it will be my choice, based on the circumstances, and decided on a case-by-case basis.

If you're worried about the money, why carry?

Irrelevant. I carry for me, not for you or anyone else.

If you're not willing to protect the life of another human being, why carry?

That's a short sighted statement. I am willing to defend the life of another human being, but not without qualifications.

If you're not willing to stop a felony in progress, why carry?

Irrelevant, I carry for self defense. Unless the felony in progress is threatening me my gun doesn't apply (unless I choose to make an exception).

And how do I know what's going on? I don't have backup if the situation turns messed up. I don't have any intel on the situation. I may very well be compounding the problem by jumping in with a gun.

It is correct that we're not policemen, but we do have a duty (9.21 (d)(2) his conduct is required or authorized to assist a public servant in the perform-ance of his official duty, even though the servant exceeds his lawful authority.) that is authorized by the statues in our handbooks given to us by the State Department of Public Safety.

You're taking that out of context.

Would I???
Each case is different, each has it's own shade of gray, each is to be determined by it's own special circumstances in the heat of the moment.

I'd say tho, if you're not willing to ever come to someone's aid, then leave the weapon at home, and return your license to Austin.

Just my humble opinion.

Russ

I never said was wasn't willing "ever" to come to someone's aid. I'm also not willing "always" to come to someone's aid.

It's not the police's responsibility to protect us, it's our responsibility to protect us. It's not our responsibility to protect each other, it's our responsibility to protect ourselves. We have no legal responsibility to intervene. If we choose to intervene in another's defense we do so at our own risk (physically and legally).

[casselthief]

as a medical professional, I have an obligation to help someone in need of medical attention. I've seen many car wrecks, and things of that nature....
as a CHL holder, I feel an obligation as one of the "good guys" to help those around me. I am a bastion of hope, a ray of light to those lost in the dark.
and other corny movie lines.
I could not, with a clear, clean conscience turn my back on someone in need.


but then again, I'm also an Eagle Scout, so I follow the "Do a good turn, daily" motto, as well.

[ElGato]

as a medical professional, I have an obligation to help someone in need of medical attention. I've seen many car wrecks, and things of that nature....
as a CHL holder, I feel an obligation as one of the "good guys" to help those around me. I am a bastion of hope, a ray of light to those lost in the dark.
and other corny movie lines.
I could not, with a clear, clean conscience turn my back on someone in need.


but then again, I'm also an Eagle Scout, so I follow the "Do a good turn, daily" motto, as well.

[kauboy]

I could not, with a clear, clean conscience turn my back on someone in need.
... I follow the "Do a good turn, daily" motto, as well.

A man after my own heart

[Odin]

I could not, with a clear, clean conscience turn my back on someone in need.
... I follow the "Do a good turn, daily" motto, as well.

A man after my own heart

Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

[casselthief]

Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

This is indeed true, but beside the point, to me.
The path to hell is lined with good intentions (or sumpin' like dat).

it's like getting sued for cracking the ribs of the person you just saved by doing CPR on.

[kauboy]

I could not, with a clear, clean conscience turn my back on someone in need.
... I follow the "Do a good turn, daily" motto, as well.

A man after my own heart

Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

My good deeds only matter to one, and he won't punish for them.

[kauboy]

it's like getting sued for cracking the ribs of the person you just saved by doing CPR on.

Isn't there a "good samaritan" type clause that protects you from things like this? I've heard of if somewhere, but can't remember it.

[Odin]

it's like getting sued for cracking the ribs of the person you just saved by doing CPR on.

Isn't there a "good samaritan" type clause that protects you from things like this? I've heard of if somewhere, but can't remember it.

Getting sued by someone whose ribs you cracked while performing CPR isn't quite the same as getting sued by the family of a dead "poor little darling" who was robbing a store at knifepoint because the little darling's family will come out of the woodwork to testify about your bloodlust and how he was just a misunderstood youth.

Don't expect the guard you saved to help pitch in and help pay for your defense, and there's no law protecting you civilly if you shoot someone, even if it's a "good" shoot.

And what if your bullet(s) don't go exactly where you intended them to go. The law won't protect you from the lawsuits that will come from any innocent third parties who are damaged.

Things get much worse if you're unfortunate enough to be a white guy who shot a minority in this age of playing the race card for money. Read the papers and see what "the community" thinks of criminals getting shot by the police. If they hate the police for shooting a criminal they'll hate you. The city of Dallas routinely pays off the families of criminals killed by police officers doing their job (even when the officer is found to have done no wrong) rather than defend their officers, so don't look for the government to come to your defense even if you're legally justified. You and I can't just dip into the people's tax dollars every time we want to pay off a criminal's family, we actually have to work for our money.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't step in to help someone in need, including using deadly force to protect another. But I'm sure not going to jump into just any situation without thinking about the ramifications. I'll defend myself and my own instinctively and deal with the aftermath when it comes, but for a total stranger I'll think about it before I act.

[kauboy]

it's like getting sued for cracking the ribs of the person you just saved by doing CPR on.

Isn't there a "good samaritan" type clause that protects you from things like this? I've heard of if somewhere, but can't remember it.

Getting sued by someone whose ribs you cracked while performing CPR isn't quite the same as getting sued by the family of a dead "poor little darling" who was robbing a store at knifepoint because the little darling's family will come out of the woodwork to testify about your bloodlust and how he was just a misunderstood youth.

Dude, chill out! Maybe I should have put "off topic" in there. That question was only inteded for casselethief since he is in the medical field. It did not pertain to this conversation and I'm sorry for asking here.

Don't expect the guard you saved to help pitch in and help pay for your defense, and there's no law protecting you civilly if you shoot someone, even if it's a "good" shoot.

There soon will be. (this year if it passes)

And what if your bullet(s) don't go exactly where you intended them to go.

Then I shouldn't be carrying at all.

The law won't protect you from the lawsuits that will come from any innocent third parties who are damaged.

You're right. It says so in the Penal Code. But I don't ever intend for that to happen. Thats why I practice often.

I'll defend myself and my own instinctively and deal with the aftermath when it comes, but for a total stranger I'll think about it before I act.

And it might be too late by then.

[Odin]

Don't expect the guard you saved to help pitch in and help pay for your defense, and there's no law protecting you civilly if you shoot someone, even if it's a "good" shoot.

There soon will be. (this year if it passes)

And that would be a good thing, I think we can all agree.

And what if your bullet(s) don't go exactly where you intended them to go.

Then I shouldn't be carrying at all.

Unless you're fortunate enough to exist in a perfect world then it's a very real possibility. You can practice and prepare, but when the a problem arises there will always be an element of the unknown involved. Even the best SWAT teams in the world suffer from collateral damage sometimes. It's not from a lack of training or preparedness, and those guys can shoot. But you aren't in control of all of the elements around you, and the best shot in the world can have an off day when someone is trying to kill them.

If you think that you can practice your way to safely discharging a gun in a mall then you're fooling yourself and a danger to yourself and those around you. Shooting a gun in a mall is a calculated risk that carries the very real possibility of collateral damage. Any statement to the contrary is wishful thinking.

The law won't protect you from the lawsuits that will come from any innocent third parties who are damaged.

You're right. It says so in the Penal Code. But I don't ever intend for that to happen. Thats why I practice often.

See above.

I'll defend myself and my own instinctively and deal with the aftermath when it comes, but for a total stranger I'll think about it before I act.

And it might be too late by then.

It might. Stuff happens. I can't save the world, and I won't leap headfirst into third party disputes without consideration of the consequences. If that means I miss the opportunity to help someone then it's sad, but I can live with it. I don't like it, but I don't control my environment and other people.

[TX Rancher]

Odin, it’s clear you’ve thought about this and have come to the conclusion not to deploy your weapon. I can’t argue with your analysis.

Kauboy, it’s also clear you too have thought this through and came to the conclusion you would step in. It’s obvious you too have thought about the potential for the negative outcomes mentioned by Odin, and have decided to take the risks anyway.

To me you’re both right. The decision to engage the teen before he has injured the guard is a very personal one and I feel should be left to each individual.

I applaud both of you for thinking it out in advance so your course of action will already be defined in your mind. It’s easy to define the response to scenarios such as “Terrorist enters the store, announces he will detonate the bomb he is wearing, and you’re too close to get away� and a majority of folks will come to the same conclusion. But scenarios such as this one are not so clear cut, and the course of action is more driven by the individual’s philosophy then anything else.

For me it would depend on if I believed the guard was in danger of being stabbed, and I doubted his ability to protect himself.

If the teen is 5’11� / 135 lbs and the guard is 6’ / 190 lbs solid muscle and it looks like he can handle himself, I’ll probably be a good witness. Sure, the teen may be very good, and the guard could lose, but the odds are with the guard.

Switch the particulars, and I would help the guard, which as Odin states could start me down a very bad path when I have to deal with the outcome.

The problem will be the decision may well have to be made in considerably less then a second, and that means running on auto pilot…

[Odin]

The problem will be the decision may well have to be made in considerably less then a second, and that means running on auto pilot…

That is the problem. The best plans will not always hold up in these situations. Truth be known, I can't say what I'd do until I was there, and then it would probably happen so fast I would have to think about it to know why I did what I did.

Unfortunately, attorneys have years to criticize the decisions that you had tenths of a second to make.

[propellerhead]

Unfortunately, attorneys have years to criticize the decisions that you had tenths of a second to make.

That statement sums up just about all the what-if threads.

[TX Rancher]

Unfortunately, attorneys have years to criticize the decisions that you had tenths of a second to make.

That statement sums up just about all the what-if threads.

Which is why I think it’s good to work through these “what ifs� in your head. I do believe you can predispose yourself to a certain response if you think about it enough, and then hope it never happens!