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gigag04 wrote:"Compliance tools" are a loosing battle when it comes to 4th amendment seizures. You didnt listen to me so I'm going to Hurt you is just plain bad, and looks worse. I prefer a strategically placed hand or finger (google transport wrist lock or mandibular angle) for less violent and equally as effective methods to gain control.

Escalating up and down a use of force continuum with a violator is generally the appropriate response.

The vast majority of videos showing police using pepper spray show them using it at as a punishment rather than a "compliance tool". With all these new tools, tasers and the like, people are often not even given a chance to comply with any orders. Now these protesters were well warned but I think that since they showed no signs of active resistance, there should have been the attempt to physically remove them first. If the protesters had then actively fought with the officers I could see justification for using a more hands off approach to complience such as tasers or pepper spray.

If you really want to see a way out of proportion response to a protest take a look at the anything from Pittsburg. I believe they got in trouble for their shirts that read "We get up early to beat the crowds".

My take on the video though...I think this officer actually behaved quite reasonably and professionally and is the victim of bad policy and sensationalized media.

'Bull' Connors used fire hoses and police dogs to move demonstrators back in the day. What's the difference between then and now?

An unlawful demonstration is an unlawful demonstration...right?

should have shot a couple..no sympathy from me. let the flames begin..

olafpfj wrote: Now these protesters were well warned but I think that since they showed no signs of active resistance, there should have been the attempt to physically remove them first.

Actually, they all had tightly-interlocked arms to prevent individuals from being physically removed. Any physical force would have required significant (read that: pain/injury-inducing) contact of many participating officers working to "unlock" a determined, adrenaline-rushed group of people. Pepper spray was, IMHO, the right solution.

As I said, the protesters staged the entire incident for physical confrontation and propaganda-generation, and succeeded.

(Deleted my comment out of courtesy to Reloader's request)

OldCannon wrote:

olafpfj wrote: Now these protesters were well warned but I think that since they showed no signs of active resistance, there should have been the attempt to physically remove them first.

Actually, they all had tightly-interlocked arms to prevent individuals from being physically removed. Any physical force would have required significant (read that: pain/injury-inducing) contact of many participating officers working to "unlock" a determined, adrenaline-rushed group of people. Pepper spray was, IMHO, the right solution.

As I said, the protesters staged the entire incident for physical confrontation and propaganda-generation, and succeeded.

I said "attempt". Even after the pepper spray though, they still have to go in and physically manhandle them outta there. In this case I don't see the pepper spray accomplishing anything but bad P.R. and the police getting their pound of flesh a little easier.

On another note I keep getting the impression that pepper spray is pretty ineffective against a determined individual. The anti's who tout it as an alternative to a firearm should take note.

olafpfj wrote:

OldCannon wrote:

olafpfj wrote: Now these protesters were well warned but I think that since they showed no signs of active resistance, there should have been the attempt to physically remove them first.

Actually, they all had tightly-interlocked arms to prevent individuals from being physically removed. Any physical force would have required significant (read that: pain/injury-inducing) contact of many participating officers working to "unlock" a determined, adrenaline-rushed group of people. Pepper spray was, IMHO, the right solution.

As I said, the protesters staged the entire incident for physical confrontation and propaganda-generation, and succeeded.

I said "attempt". Even after the pepper spray though, they still have to go in and physically manhandle them outta there. In this case I don't see the pepper spray accomplishing anything but bad P.R. and the police getting their pound of flesh a little easier.

On another note I keep getting the impression that pepper spray is pretty ineffective against a determined individual. The anti's who tout it as an alternative to a firearm should take note.

You can pepper spray someone that's on PCP until your can runs dry and all it will do is make your own life harder. As far as this protest goes and the strategy of interlocking arms, police could have just tazed any two side by side protestors, and their interlocked arms strategy falls apart. Then you wade in and start carrying people off. Only two protestors get zapped, the ones on either side of them let go so as to not get jolted, nobody gets hurt, two people feel the pain of being tazed. Everybody gets to go home unhurt that night except for those students whose parents say, "no, the price of independence is that you are responsible for the consequences of your actions.....not me."

for the Taser to work they would have to physically attach one lead to one protester at one side and the other lead to the protester at the other side to complete the circuit. Also, everyone in between is going to feel that jolt and it hurts like somethin' else. We tested this when I got certified for taser use at a previous job.

knotquiteawake wrote:for the Taser to work they would have to physically attach one lead to one protester at one side and the other lead to the protester at the other side to complete the circuit. Also, everyone in between is going to feel that jolt and it hurts like somethin' else. We tested this when I got certified for taser use at a previous job.

Better yet!

I didn't get the story details

Is this the same group of students who complained about someone loaning them money for college now complaining that someone gave them free condiments? If so, tough crowd to please.

RPB wrote:I didn't get the story details

Is this the same group of students who complained about someone loaning them money for college now complaining that someone gave them free condiments? If so, tough crowd to please.

They're not complaining about getting the loan. They're complaining that the greedy widows and orphans who loaned the money expect to be paid back.

As far as condiments. Those wimps couldn't handle anything more zesty than mayo.

Please delete my post.

gigag04 wrote:"Compliance tools" are a loosing battle when it comes to 4th amendment seizures. You didnt listen to me so I'm going to Hurt you is just plain bad, and looks worse. I prefer a strategically placed hand or finger (google transport wrist lock or mandibular angle) for less violent and equally as effective methods to gain control.

Escalating up and down a use of force continuum with a violator is generally the appropriate response.

This I can agree with, there should be a warning then a attempt to physically persuade, then move on to pressure points, wrist locks, arm bars, etc ... and at this point if they resist by all means pepper spay to get needed results and not a blanketed spray grab a head, expose face spray into face(know your target).

I've had people cling to things to avoid being arrested. Employing an intermediate weapon to answer defensive resistance is lazy. There are all sorts of seemingly innocent looking places to touch that can make even the most determined resistance fold.

gigag04 wrote:I've had people cling to things to avoid being arrested. Employing an intermediate weapon to answer defensive resistance is lazy. There are all sorts of seemingly innocent looking places to touch that can make even the most determined resistance fold.

That's what I was getting at. The lazy aspect of taser and pepper spray use. LEO is a physical job just like construction and much of the stage hand work I do. If people had the slightest clue how much back breaking goes into setting up a show no one would ever want to be a Roadie. Speaking of which I have a piano to move and much like a protester it ain't gonna move itself.